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Thread: Political Ideology

  1. #2491
    Administrator Grumpy Old Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manalysis View Post
    Sorry, I don't get what you mean by this.

    M
    Here is a quote I learned once that may elucidate for you:
    Sometimes, winning is losing. Sometimes losing is winning.
    Maybe it's time to stop simply trying to win an argument and work on relationships. A mix of the two helps keep shit from getting silly. My major malfunction with SST is he has not learned this lesson, and the smartest guy in the world is not going to change the world until he heeds this advice.

    Remember our mission here. It is not to change everyone's political ideology, but to address issues concerning men and boys.

    Just saying.
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  2. #2492
    Senior Member Maxx's Avatar
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    Well...

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspawn View Post
    The wars caused by Bush and Blair's intervention in Iraq,
    Here's my first problem...I don't get why leftists who have issue with intervention in Iraq which they see as snatch and grab operation for resources and capital also support an open boarder policy in relation to the very people who's nation's they believe their governments have raped and plundered?

    Isn't that a bit like breaking a guy's nose then dropping your hands and waiting for him to counter?

    Don't they GET that in accordance with Islamic doctrine the voting public in any democracy are accountable for the actions of their elected governments?

    I mean if you support the leftist argument that these foreign policy misadventures were war crimes (and I don't wholly disagree with that narrative myself) you can't also think it's a good idea to invite in a bunch of people that your governments committed war crimes against into your nation.

    It's kinda like saying to a guy 'sorry I broke your nose, I'd really like to make it up to you, please come into my house and fuck my wife'

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspawn View Post
    the interventions in the Arab Spring, particularly Libya and the outcomes of those have left a deep dissatisfaction with government decisions, and also distrust for oil companies and arms manufacturers who are felt to be benefiting.
    Sure. But we (in the west) are not energy independent so we need to do one of three things -

    1) remove all the green bullshit and work towards energy independence in tandem with an isolationist foreign policy. (my preferred right wing position)
    2) accept that we have to do business with some unsavory mother fuckers around the globe who's values we don't share (again not something I give a fuck about as a right winger).
    3) attempt to dispose unsavory people and promote and install pro-west rulers likely to implement 'western style democracy'

    Of these options I am most against 3. I don't think America or any other nation's men should be dying for anyone else's freedom. If they want it let them fight for it. I also don't think we or any other nation has a duty of care with regards to their refugees. Their civil conflicts, their humanitarian crisis. Our own nation is on it's knees. The middle class is fucked.

    Our own people need help and support. Charity starts at home.

    We can't worry about Syrians before we fix Chicago and Baltimore and Detroit.

    Moreover all organic people's revolts in the entire history of the middle east have led to MORE Islamic LESS pro-western regimes. So our intervention will only ever amount to replacing Muslim despots with our preferred secularist ones. That shit didn't exactly work out as planned historically in Iran or Iraq and it's not going fare any better next time round. It's a losing play.

    What's funny about 3 is that isn't not as much a neo-con thing as it first appears. Feminists/progressives are firmly on board with this too.

    Only they come at it from the whole 'birth control and bras' for the girls of Africa and Malala and hastags against Boka Haram side of it.

    Soft interventionism is supported by the establishment left as much as hard interventionism is supported by sections of the establishment right.

    Only on the right there is a non-interventionist alternative.

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspawn View Post
    Afghanistan is suspected as being more about oil pipelines and mineral extraction. That negativity and suspicion hasn't gone away, just been pushed under surface by the terrorism and migrant / refugee crisis.
    I think the fatal error those on the left make is this.

    For the average white liberal being pissed off with your government is like being pissed off with your daddy. You might want to punch him in the face...but at the end of the day he's still your daddy.

    That's not how the average Muslim migrant feels about it. It's not HIS daddy. It's his foreign invader. His oppressor. His invading raping pirate. His mortal enemy.

    This is where the left goes wrong in getting in bed with jew-hating Muslim migrants from a position of apparent united opposition to neo-con interventionism.

    The enemy of your enemy is not your friends. These people wanna smoke Gay pride marchers in g-strings as much as they want to smoke Bush and Blair any Jew they can lay their hands on.
    Last edited by Maxx; 03-29-2017 at 01:33 AM.
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  3. #2493
    Senior Member Maxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidspawn View Post
    Add to this you have the 2008 banking crisis, and the solutions being banking and corporate welfare.
    That's an interesting one. Because right wingers oppose that because they see it as a left thing. And leftists oppose it as a right thing. What you end up with is a mass of people 'united' on opposition while coming at it from different sides of the horse shoe.

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspawn View Post
    Even if people weren't sympathetic to a left wing rise in Greece, many were sympathetic to plight of the Greek people and the message made by an effective overruling of their democratic will.
    Yeah. It's outrageous. As much as I'm anti-left I think the EU essentially telling the people of Greece that they can't have the left wing government they voted for is just fucking insane. And the only thing more shocking about this is how 'unshocked' the average European seems to be about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspawn View Post
    The core of most of these events has been, rightly or wrong assigned to the right wing politicians and by extension to the right wing mindset. I don't agree with it being extended to the right wing mindset, nor do I like the left wing tactic of calling ring wing mindset racist to exclude them. But when it comes to economic decisions, which have inflated and bubbled the housing market, and inflated the equity market then I do think, economically right wing politicians inc those like Gordon Brown, Tony Blair, Barack Obama (etc wearing left wing cloaks) are to blame rather than left wing politicians like Bernie Sanders and Jeremy Corbin.
    But are they 'wearing left wing cloaks' or is a 'cloak' all that much of this left wing stuff ever is in the first place?

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspawn View Post
    The Left movement has latched on to these dissatisfactions and used left wing social and morality policy concessions made by all political fronts, corporations and institutions, esp pandering to feminists, to launch an all out offensive or power grab over economic, democratic and justice policy.

    The assault is predicated on blaming the right wing mindset, that brings in right wing politicians. You can point to the rise of hard right and even far right politicians in countries impacted, but it's rising at a time when left wing sentiment hasn't actually started to recede.
    Well what the media calls the far right is really just all the people the new left left behind. The further the left disappeared down it's own asshole worrying about Feminist bullshit and 6'5 250lbs trannies' right to take a shit next your wife and 8 year old daughter the more they simply alienate the core base upon which their power plays depend.

    The ordinary little working man. Feminism has played a critical role in increasingly turning the left into a place where the working man is not only not welcome but to blame for everyone else's issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by voidspawn View Post
    I've lived through right and left cycles before, things are bit different now because internet makes things faster, and the argument descends quicker since we don't have anything resembling either a non partisan media or an honest set of opposing media. This is resulting in a lot of friction and melee, and that is resulting in a far more rapid rise of hardened and even extreme views.

    Would you say firstly any political leadership is actually without blame? And secondly can this actually be laid down as failings of either left wing mindset, right wing mindset or any combination of both?
    I think social media is turning everyone into a diva. Surrounded by 'yes men' and people who 'like' everything they say. With ignore/block buttons for everyone that tells them things they don't want to hear.
    Last edited by Maxx; 03-28-2017 at 01:59 PM.
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  4. #2494
    Administrator Grumpy Old Man's Avatar
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    Add to this you have the 2008 banking crisis, and the solutions being banking and corporate welfare.
    LoL, the recovery is one thing. The cause is a complete other. The real question is not about second guessing reactionary solutions because the facts say most if not all the recovery money invested has been returned. The fact is the cause goes back to Progressive policies, loosening of policy to increase home ownership and the bat shit crazy funneling sub-Prime loans through Fanny May et al to reduce bank loan exposure etc. Then the idiocy of derivatives compounding the fundamental problem. I'm not a fan of those not keeping track blasting BS. Seriously!

    On a broader note, it seems insidious to claim a certain ideological solution when the same ideology created the problem in the first place.

    How about some informed intellectual integrity in these debates.
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  5. #2495
    Senior Member Maxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
    On a broader note, it seems insidious to claim a certain ideological solution when the same ideology created the problem in the first place.
    The trouble, GOM is that this is how EVERYONE across the political spectrum sees it. I'm on the right. So I agree with you 200%.

    I see so many leftist MRAs (or leftists generally) crying for the state to get MORE involved say family and marriage.
    Crying for the state to MORE involved in big business and regulation of the corporate sector. etc etc.

    And like you I see this exactly as insane and wrong headed and absurd.

    Looking for ideological solutions from the same ideology responsible for the problem.

    But the problem is that leftists usually see an inverted version of the same picture. And the way social media and trigger warnings and hashtags and 'likes' work these days is that people are increasingly breaking off into isolated cliqs populated by people who share their perspective. They put everyone else on block and they reach with shock and horror when those same people show up at election time and cross the 'wrong' box on their ballot.
    "Being a cunt doesn't make you wrong." ComradePrescott

  6. #2496
    Senior Member voidspawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxx View Post
    That's an interesting one. Because right wingers oppose that because they see it as a left thing. And leftists oppose it as a right thing. What you end up with is a mass of people 'united' on opposition while coming at it from different sides of the horse shoe.
    There seems to be tendency to blame everything as emerging from an ideology and particularly that of the other side. Different words for the same thing. In the UK Gordon Brown was PM when the UK Banks were bailed out, but by then Labour was being called Red Tories. The political spectrum doesn't fit the purpose of describing reality. Back to core is needed. Pull out the issue, describe what happened, identify then with the data see what is behind it.

    It's pretty easy to shift it to the other side though, if things are just dumped as belonging to the other. Right wing are no cleaner on that one than anything else, corporatism and consumerist corruption and pandering to whatever group needs to be owned by the mindset that yields it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxx View Post
    Yeah. It's outrageous. As much as I'm anti-left I think the EU essentially telling the people of Greece that they can't have the left wing government they voted for is just fucking insane. And the only thing more shocking about this is how 'unshocked' the average European seems to be about it.
    Too many average Europeans have drunk the cool aid about a EU state, and stay schtum when the corruption and centralisation is pointed out. The EU was expanded against it's own rules for geopolitical reasons to stop former Eastern Bloc falling back under Russian influence. This bloc is now a bloc within a bloc and the rest of the EU is in denial. The EU is going to flop because it can't face reality. The bosses of the EU are insanely driving towards a super state because they got superpower envy. What was a good idea for a free trade zone, is now a bad idea for a government.

    I'd have no qualms about that whole thing going.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maxx View Post
    But are they 'wearing left wing cloaks' or is a 'cloak' all that much of this left wing stuff ever is in the first place?
    Really depends what you use as your identifiers, corporatism, consumerism, militarism, mass surveillance and privacy invasion in the UK are all tagged as right wing policy. Along with privatisation and croney capitalism.

    Taxation/redistribution, welfare, public services, nationalisation, pacifism, feminism all tagged as left wing policy

    Reality though not so neat right wing UK governments do plenty of left wing things, no increase in taxation is the holy grail of the Tories. But the protect the no increase in corporate taxation, leave income tax unchanged but increase NI (which is just another national direct tax) and have increased VAT more than any other. The tax burden on individuals remains the same regardless. No governments actually do any meaningful devolution of power from central government. At the end of the day regardless of principles the release of real authority from their own hands, just sticks in there throats way too much. England is by far the largest UK nation, it's also insanely centralised, local areas and regions can't even set some of their most basic function policies for such as housing, transport, health, schools or local council tax rates. GDP/GVA's for regions are not even possible to know, and just estimated.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maxx View Post
    Well what the media calls the far right is really just all the people the new left left behind. The further the left disappeared down it's own asshole worrying about Feminist bullshit and 6'5 250lbs trannies' right to take a shit next your wife and 8 year old daughter the more they simply alienate the core base upon which their power plays depend.
    Yup the divide here is almost direct split through class lines. Working class are the grounds for the alternative right growth, led by upper middle class nationalist / protectionist. The bulk of the middle class employed are left wing. Middle class mercantile self employed from shop owners to small factory owners are split depending who their customer base is, and whether they see themselves as new economy or traditional trades. New economy being very left wing on social policy, traditional trades being more laissez faire.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxx View Post
    The ordinary little working man. Feminism has played a critical role in increasingly turning the left into a place where the working man is not only not welcome but to blame for everyone else's issues.
    Feminism is still being given a free pass all over the UK. Speaking out is treated like saying you want to jail women who don't put out. Too many still don't realise or admit what's being done. It's embarrassing. Last time feminism got a deep hold in the Left the country lurched to the Right where they weren't influential and they were pushed back. Since then though there's been two even three generations reaching majority. Feminism infiltrates all main parties, institutions, exactly like cancer. Tories have succumbed to it. Phillip Davies is still a lone voice. With feminist taking over so much in the media the politicians are keen to pander to them. Feminism is more the true hidden face of the mainstream left and right in the UK than socialism and capitalism.

    I've seen directly how feminists operate politically. They approach any group of any size and offer to help them become woman friendly to secure more votes from women. Once let through the door the rot begins and doesn't stop.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maxx View Post
    I think social media is turning everyone into a diva. Surrounded by 'yes men' and people who 'like' everything they say. With ignore/block buttons for everyone that tells them things they don't want to hear.
    Yup.
    "...especially when it comes to communication, it can be observed, if it is not a negotiation it's a war."
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  7. #2497
    Senior Member Manalysis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxx View Post
    I think social media is turning everyone into a diva. Surrounded by 'yes men' and people who 'like' everything they say. With ignore/block buttons for everyone that tells them things they don't want to hear.
    In its own twisted way, I can see why that must feel quite wonderful

    M

  8. #2498
    Administrator Grumpy Old Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxx View Post
    The trouble, GOM is that this is how EVERYONE across the political spectrum sees it. I'm on the right. So I agree with you 200%.

    I see so many leftist MRAs (or leftists generally) crying for the state to get MORE involved say family and marriage.
    Crying for the state to MORE involved in big business and regulation of the corporate sector. etc etc.

    And like you I see this exactly as insane and wrong headed and absurd.

    Looking for ideological solutions from the same ideology responsible for the problem.

    But the problem is that leftists usually see an inverted version of the same picture. And the way social media and trigger warnings and hashtags and 'likes' work these days is that people are increasingly breaking off into isolated cliqs populated by people who share their perspective. They put everyone else on block and they reach with shock and horror when those same people show up at election time and cross the 'wrong' box on their ballot.
    Maxx, there is plenty of blame to go around...it was a long road of bad decisions by both sides; one trying to increase access to home ownership, the other not doing due diligence. The housing crisis was fueled by easy money and subprime loans. It was ignited by hiding these problems from investors in derivative manipulation and leveraging and reducing mortgage risk to banks and investors by funneling through Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and bundling them for the secondary market investors. These problems were identified before the crash.

    My overarching point here is risk needs to be placed back at the lender and government needs to stop using incentives which creats and environment of bad decisions at the ground level.

    If the Left, Right, and all in between are going to prevent this from happening again there needs to be a level of knowledge. Demanding more regulation only puts a band-aid on the problem. I'm not saying no regulation, but appropriate regulation and management.
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  9. #2499
    Senior Member mr_e's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
    Maxx, there is plenty of blame to go around...it was a long road of bad decisions by both sides; one trying to increase access to home ownership, the other not doing due diligence. The housing crisis was fueled by easy money and subprime loans. It was ignited by hiding these problems from investors in derivative manipulation and leveraging and reducing mortgage risk to banks and investors by funneling through Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and bundling them for the secondary market investors. These problems were identified before the crash.

    My overarching point here is risk needs to be placed back at the lender and government needs to stop using incentives which creats and environment of bad decisions at the ground level.

    If the Left, Right, and all in between are going to prevent this from happening again there needs to be a level of knowledge. Demanding more regulation only puts a band-aid on the problem. I'm not saying no regulation, but appropriate regulation and management.

    For what it's worth-- nobody can talk about welfare and people living on the dole without *also* pointing to the trillion dollar slow-motion bank robbery which was TARP.
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  10. #2500
    Administrator Grumpy Old Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_e View Post
    For what it's worth-- nobody can talk about welfare and people living on the dole without *also* pointing to the trillion dollar slow-motion bank robbery which was TARP.
    I don't disagree. What I will posit, even though I'm not a proponent of TARP, is that the stakes were much higher on a scale. I don't see this as a mutually exclusive discussion. How we address our safety net and care for our disadvantaged is directly dependent upon the health of our economy. One does not come at the expense of the other IMO.

    I think I pointed out, if my research on the topic is accurate, that the TARP monies have been recovered to the treasury. "TARP recovered funds totaling $441.7 billion from $426.4 billion invested."

    So you know where I'm coming from. I have fewer issues with our social safety net in the discretionary budget, I think we can all agree it is small potatoes, and it should be managed to ensure it takes care of our most needy and not be abused. My major concern right now is for our entitlement programs; SS and medicare. They are currently unsustainable and need to be addressed.

    Note: I view TARP as a bandaid fix to the fundamental problems I explained earlier.
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