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Thread: Is the main girl from the new Star Wars a Mary Sue?

  1. #1

    Is the main girl from the new Star Wars a Mary Sue?

    There's been a lot of talk about it recently. Here is an article about it

    http://www.theverge.com/2015/12/19/1...y-sue-feminist


    What do you think?

  2. #2
    Senior Member Maxx's Avatar
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    The feminism isn't oppressive.

    There are a ton of a bad ass dudes in the movie too.

    Including the original bad ass himself Han Solo of course.

    Ray is not like a sassy Joss Whedon nerd-baiting dominatrix type character.

    I watched the movie with a chick she was more bothered by the female led than I was.

    That never happens...I hated Avengers in part because Whedon turned Black Widow into a feminist mary sue. I can't stand those ridiculous underworld movies. I hate almost every single movie in which they have a super capable mary sue chick doing stupid feminist high kicking 'martial arts' against a room full of dudes.

    This movie isn't one of them.

    She's good at fixing engines because she grew up on a desert planet full of scraps of star destroyers that fell outta the sky. She can defend herself from being raped by sand people using a stick. That's it.

    No one liners. No 'try and keep up boys' nonsense. None of that.

    She's not some sort of spandex wear sassy super chick nerds are meant to beat off over.

    The only case for regarding the character as a mary sue stems from the speed at which she picks up certain force abilities....and without going into spoiler territory I think there's pretty strong evidence explaining a VERY bad ass reason for this that I can't get into here without giving away key elements of the movie.

    HINT; For those that have seen the movie I think the clues explaining the ease with which she picks up those force abilities resides in the scene immediately following the introduction of 'someone's' lightsabre.
    Last edited by Maxx; 12-22-2015 at 10:43 AM.
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  3. #3
    Senior Member Phobos's Avatar
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    Yeah, if it turns out to be what Maxx is hinting at then I think all is forgiven.
    The whole bit with Rey balking at Finn holding her hand made me eyeroll, though.

    EDIT: Here's something someone else posted on an IMDB forum. I'm sure it will get deleted soon. Not sure if I agree (just saw the movie yesterday, haven't digested it all), but it's an interesting take.

    Kylo Ren is an indictment of White Young Males around the country...they lack focus, they are angry, they got daddy issues, and wish they were powerful.

    Rey makes feminist wet since she is the opposite...she is everything Ren is not...and that is the problem.

    Rey has everything Ren wants by default...all she needed was to be 'mind' raped by a male (Ren), to claim the invincible victim hood.
    Last edited by Phobos; 12-23-2015 at 12:53 AM.

  4. #4
    I've been hearing from a lot of places this movie is a SJW's wet dream. Sounds pretty discouraging

  5. #5
    TL;DR seems to think so
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  6. #6
    Senior Member Maxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imdbguy View Post
    Kylo Ren is an indictment of White Young Males around the country...they lack focus, they are angry, they got daddy issues, and wish they were powerful.
    Here's my problem with this right here. This is EXACTLY what feminists do. Feminists argue that every female in a given movie is some sort of statement about the entire female gender.

    Writers respond by turning female characters into mary sues without any issues or problems in order to get feminists off their back.

    It sickens me hear MRAs or allegedly red pill anti-feminist types doing the EXACT same thing.

    I WANT to see male characters who lack focus, who are angry, who have daddy issues who wish they were powerful...I was ALL THOSE THINGS when I was a boy.

    Those things make a character ('good' or 'bad') complex and compelling.

    We WANT characters that are complex and compelling. Don't we?

    I don't want a bunch of male and female mary sues in every fucking movie because the entire younger generation has become such a bunch of special snowflakes that they can't handle the sight of a character of the same gender as them having issues or flaws or being 'bad' without fucking taking it personally and getting butt hurt.
    Last edited by Maxx; 12-23-2015 at 02:42 PM.
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  7. #7
    Senior Member Maxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imdefender View Post
    TL;DR seems to think so
    SPOILERS FOLLOW FOR FORCE AWAKENS -


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    A lot of people like this guy in this video here, could well end up with egg on their faces by the time the next movie comes out.

    The guy in this video keeps repeating that 'she has had no force training' over and over. What's his basis for this assertion?

    We are informed early on that 'one of Luke's student's turned on him'.

    'one of' implication being there was more than one.

    The girl's entire back story is shrouded in mystery. Touching Luke's light saber triggers a nightmarish vision. That vision looks a lot like a memory. We see what looks like Luke and R2-D2 engaged in what appears to be a confrontation with the knights of Ren. We then see a young Rey looking up and crying as she is abandoned by a mysterious figure on a desert planet...

    The clues are ALL there.

    People constantly complain about movies handing things to them and then they call a character a mary sue just because the reasons for their abilities are only hinted out rather than explicitly stated in the first part of a three part cycle.

    This is Star Wars guys....

    'Who's your daddy?' Is a key question here. 'Who's your daddy and what does he do?'

    My money is on Han or Luke.

    Let's tackle the mary sue issues one on one -

    She pilots the Falcon with ease - Valid, but why assume she's not piloted anything before? Luke got in an X-Wing for the first time and blew up the fucking Death Star. People on desert planet pilot stuff. Luke had that little speeder thing didn't he.

    Secondly there is a joke in scene where Han Solo gets into the Falcon and learns it's been fitted with new tech he's not familiar with. This is a generational gag more than a gender one. And no she doesn't pilot it better than Han she co pilots it with him because Chewie is injured and doesn't fuck it up.

    Then onto the end fights.

    Kylo gets shot shortly after her kills 'you know who', he's limping through the cold and keeps hitting his wound, presumably because he's losing sensation and fading out. This is the condition he STARTS the fight in. He takes on Finn, who attacks aggressively without much let up. Kylo deals with him but expends a lot of his already sapped energy doing so.

    This tires himself out. Then he tries to force pull the Luke saber into his grip to finish off Finn when the saber doesn't budge...

    ...This is as much to do with the saber resisting as anything else.

    Like an Excalibur thing. And then it flies into Rey's hand instead. When it does she's shocked. Then Kylo attacks her and backs her up. She's on the defensive for the entire fight, eventually Kylo is distracted by his footing giving way and she lands a blow that floors him.

    He can't get up before the ground gives way and separates them.

    She doesn't 'hand his ass to him'. People wanna be butt hurt and so they are seeing Jesus in a piece of toast.

    When it comes to the mind trick thing...Kylo employs it on her when he doesn't know she's force sensitive. When he opens up her mind in discovers to his horror that she has the ability to look back into him too. That's cool. And again it's only bad writing IF she has no Jedi training and is NOT either Kylo's secret BROTHER or Luke's secret DAUGHTER.

    Which don't know she isn't.

    Like I said if the second film comes out and she's not one of the Jedi previously trained by Luke, if it's revealed that Luke didn't in fact wipe her memory of her training to protect her from Ren if it's revealed that she's not either Han's daughter or Luke's if she is revealed to just be some chick from the desert who picked up a light saber and beat a Sith for no fucking reason....then yeh she's a mary sue and the writing sucks.

    But we don't presently have the info to jump to that conclusion.

    And all the clues that there's more to it are already there in Force Awakens. What the hell was that nightmare sequence all about and what does it mean?

    We got just under two years to speculate and nerd-out about it...and then we'll have our answers.
    Last edited by Maxx; 12-23-2015 at 03:07 PM.
    "Being a cunt doesn't make you wrong." ComradePrescott

  8. #8
    Senior Member Phobos's Avatar
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    SPECULATION - POSSIBLE SPOILER

    Rey's origin is unknown. She has a strange vision/flashback when she touches Anakin/Luke's lightsaber. If it is indeed revealed in the next movie that she is Luke Skywalker's daughter, I think a lot of people will be satisfied by that as the explanation for her "Mary Sue-ness". It could be possible that she even received some training from him when she was a small child.

    I realize I'm doing the same "Maybe in the next movie it will be explained" thing that fanboys employed for the prequels.

  9. #9
    This Star Wars is a Disney movie. Keep that in mind before trying to make excuses for it.
    This isn't Kim Possible Disney(The best example of a non-Mary Sue female protagonist in my book) , this Maleficent Disney, this is Frozen Disney, this is Toy Story 3 Disney, this is Fem-Thor Disney.
    This is the post-Gargoyles Disney. Back in those days, they tried their hardest to appeal to boys, Gargoyles, Treasure Planet, Atlantis, Tarzan(the only Disney prince movie aside from Lion King), they even turned a female lead show to a male lead spinoff ("That's So Raven" to "Cory in the House") the closest thing to success they got was Phienes and Ferb, boys were not interested and now Disney hates men and boys and caters only to feminists since about Iron Man 1.
    I will stick to WB and DC and hope Captain America Civil War falls flat on its face against Batman v Superman and Disney goes bust funding marvel soon.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by shephardjhon View Post
    This Star Wars is a Disney movie. Keep that in mind before trying to make excuses for it.
    This isn't Kim Possible Disney(The best example of a non-Mary Sue female protagonist in my book) , this Maleficent Disney, this is Frozen Disney, this is Toy Story 3 Disney, this is Fem-Thor Disney.
    This is the post-Gargoyles Disney. Back in those days, they tried their hardest to appeal to boys, Gargoyles, Treasure Planet, Atlantis, Tarzan(the only Disney prince movie aside from Lion King), they even turned a female lead show to a male lead spinoff ("That's So Raven" to "Cory in the House") the closest thing to success they got was Phienes and Ferb, boys were not interested and now Disney hates men and boys and caters only to feminists since about Iron Man 1.
    I will stick to WB and DC and hope Captain America Civil War falls flat on its face against Batman v Superman and Disney goes bust funding marvel soon.
    Toy Story 3 was fantastic

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