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Thread: Is the main girl from the new Star Wars a Mary Sue?

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by astr592 View Post
    Toy Story 3 was fantastic
    Ken gets tortured by Barbie and Andy is replaced by a girl. Also I don't remember any female toys being in the evil toy group.
    Even the one of the first two has has a brother is shown as evil and then tortured by the toys while his sister is supposed to be good.
    The point is DISNEY DESPISES MEN AND BOYS. Their most male-positive show Phenias and Ferb was supposed to be on Nickloadeon, and Iron Man 1 seems to be a ploy to gently suck everyone into a feminist story that the Avengers saga eventually became, only female fans who like to see the guy shirtless will stop them making Thor a woman. I stopped watching after Tony just gives his father's company to his secretary, I haven't watched any other Marvel movie since. Arrow did that the sectary to CEO thing too but in a much more natural and non-abrupt way.

    Notice also that even the Force Awakens has the woman as the most prominent character on it, the black stormtrooper-jedi is down in the corner(I haven't and probably won't see the movie so I don't know their names) and Han Solo gets a smaller image too. For me, the Phenias and Ferb Star Wars crossover was the only good Star Wars thing that Disney could make.
    If you want a better version of the Force Awakens, play Mortal Kombat X. Its the same generation torch passing, aftermath of big war thing. And the hero is a girl but not a MarySue.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Maxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shephardjhon View Post
    Ken gets tortured by Barbie and Andy is replaced by a girl. Also I don't remember any female toys being in the evil toy group.
    Even the one of the first two has has a brother is shown as evil and then tortured by the toys while his sister is supposed to be good.
    The point is DISNEY DESPISES MEN AND BOYS. Their most male-positive show Phenias and Ferb was supposed to be on Nickloadeon, and Iron Man 1 seems to be a ploy to gently suck everyone into a feminist story that the Avengers saga eventually became, only female fans who like to see the guy shirtless will stop them making Thor a woman. I stopped watching after Tony just gives his father's company to his secretary, I haven't watched any other Marvel movie since. Arrow did that the sectary to CEO thing too but in a much more natural and non-abrupt way.

    Notice also that even the Force Awakens has the woman as the most prominent character on it, the black stormtrooper-jedi is down in the corner(I haven't and probably won't see the movie so I don't know their names) and Han Solo gets a smaller image too. For me, the Phenias and Ferb Star Wars crossover was the only good Star Wars thing that Disney could make.
    If you want a better version of the Force Awakens, play Mortal Kombat X. Its the same generation torch passing, aftermath of big war thing. And the hero is a girl but not a MarySue.
    Friend,

    Disney doesn't 'despise men and boys'.

    Disney doesn't give a shit either way.

    If feminist secular progressive ideology has a major hold over the public consciousness (and in the west today it does) then that will be reflected in any creative work a massive multi-national company like Disney, targets at that public.

    The reality is that young males have in significant numbers abandoned the cinema in favor of online piracy and playing video games. On the flip side girls especially young girls have become pretty big readers of sci-fi and fantasy.

    All you see on the big screen is a smart big company moving the chips around to increase the probability of a return on investment.

    And as for the term 'male-positive' I fucking hate it. It stinks.

    What does 'male-positive' mean?

    A show or movie that only shows males in a positive light?

    Thanks but no thanks.

    You are talking to a guy who's favorite movies in include Scarface; about a Cuban drug lord who builds a massive empire stealing cheating and chopping up his rivals along the way, who robs his old bosses girl from him then murders the fucker, who eventually also murders his best buddy because the guy hooks up with his sister he kinda really wanted to fuck himself.

    And Raging Bull about a dude who beats the ever living fuck outta everyone and everything in his life including his wife and children and trusted brother and ends the movie alone in dive bar banging his head against a wall.

    Who the fuck wants 'male positive'! I don't need a movie about some magical dude who's whiter than white and never says or does anything wrong it'd annoy me beyond belief I'd want to punch the smug fucker in the face for being so perfect.

    We WANT flaws. Flaws are great!

    I'd much rather watch the Sopranos than some 'male-positive' show about about bunch of homo-looking waxed male model type super heroes who go around being fabulous all the time!

    Thanks but no thanks!
    Last edited by Maxx; 12-24-2015 at 10:34 AM.
    "Being a cunt doesn't make you wrong." ComradePrescott

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxx View Post
    Friend,

    Disney doesn't 'despise men and boys'.

    Disney doesn't give a shit either way.

    If feminist secular progressive ideology has a major hold over the public consciousness (and in the west today it does) then that will be reflected in any creative work a massive multi-national company like Disney, targets at that public.
    Secular progressive ideology yet Gotham gets made with not one, not two not even three but several female villains AND female heroes. And two recent male-dominated movies have been extremely successful, The man from UNCLE and Kingsmen, not to mention several Jason Statham movies.
    Disney could make a Maleficent and a Frozen and then one like those but even with Dreamworks coming out with How To Train a Dragon, Disney not only ignores the male audience but takes a movie, comics and other things that mostly men loved and that had makes them change to appeal to women AT THE EXPENSE OF MEN.
    What does 'male-positive' mean?
    To me it means that in the context of a good vs evil plot the good should not be represented mostly by women and the bad mostly by men.
    The movies you mention are great but they are a completely different beast than Star Wars.
    Even in Star Wars itself, there are hints of grey in Luke and of course Vader himself. Same in superhero and spy and military movies/games but the good guys aren't just women.

    I'd much rather watch the Sopranos than some 'male-positive' show about about bunch of homo-looking waxed male model type super heroes who go around being fabulous all the time!
    You would seriously love Gotham. It is a crime show, not a superhero show and it gets really dark, probably much more than the Sopranos itself.
    Also Arrow is similar in the first 2 seasons until superpowers are introduced.

    AND LASTLY;
    The comments weren't directed at you specifically, they are about Star Wars and the probable feminist direction Disney will take with it considering its past history and failure to appeal to boys in compassion to Dreamworks(a company made by bitter Disney ex-employees). That, by the way, only happened because Dreamworks movies had flawed characters unlike Disney.

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by shephardjhon View Post
    Ken gets tortured by Barbie and Andy is replaced by a girl. Also I don't remember any female toys being in the evil toy group.
    Even the one of the first two has has a brother is shown as evil and then tortured by the toys while his sister is supposed to be good.
    The point is DISNEY DESPISES MEN AND BOYS. Their most male-positive show Phenias and Ferb was supposed to be on Nickloadeon, and Iron Man 1 seems to be a ploy to gently suck everyone into a feminist story that the Avengers saga eventually became, only female fans who like to see the guy shirtless will stop them making Thor a woman. I stopped watching after Tony just gives his father's company to his secretary, I haven't watched any other Marvel movie since. Arrow did that the sectary to CEO thing too but in a much more natural and non-abrupt way.

    Notice also that even the Force Awakens has the woman as the most prominent character on it, the black stormtrooper-jedi is down in the corner(I haven't and probably won't see the movie so I don't know their names) and Han Solo gets a smaller image too. For me, the Phenias and Ferb Star Wars crossover was the only good Star Wars thing that Disney could make.
    If you want a better version of the Force Awakens, play Mortal Kombat X. Its the same generation torch passing, aftermath of big war thing. And the hero is a girl but not a MarySue.
    Andy being "replaced" by the girl was an extremely moving scene. The entire ending was tear jerking

  5. #15
    [QUOTE=Maxx;166385]Friend,

    Disney doesn't 'despise men and boys'.

    Disney doesn't give a shit either way.
    /QUOTE]

    I'm gonna disagree with you here Maxx. While there might not be a lot of utility in knowing the intent of someone who is actively trying to murder you, the best assumption (occam's razor) is they actually intend to kill you.

    Disney makes movies that portray males in a negative light and narrates these stories as though this is fair or ethical treatment. I consider this to be immoral propaganda.

    I am very sympathetic to naked capitalists pursuing the almighty dollar (which is why 77 cents stat is such obvious hogwash), and therefore sympathetic to not blaming corps for meeting demand. My problem is that the MSM is not reactively supplying what is demanded, rather they (and the rest of hollywood) are trendsetting social values.

    In 1950s America men were honored and respected. In 2015, they are portrayed as cowards and evil in a significant portion of commercials. Yes culture changed quasi voluntarily, but the news media and the entertainment industry LEAD THE WAY. And even to this day, they are more leftwing, more antifamily, more anti male than the "center right" conservative nation it supplies information to.

    They have an agenda, and are not just supplying a fix to a drug user, they are pushing the limits of that addiction past what the user currently craves.

    This is why they are an immoral corporation.

    Sitting idly by in a morally neutral position of just supplying the fix is one thing (at least inert), but pushing the boundaries of the male hate is clearly immoral. It is sacrificing the almighty dollar to change cultural values. It is not naked capitalism, it is anti male social activism and it hurts their bottom line.

    TLDR; they would make more money in a center-right nation making more Jesus and Noah movies and bashing men less. They don't. They are activists. This is a deliberate propaganda movement. They. are. not. naked. capitalists.

  6. #16
    [QUOTE=canbeserious;166519]
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxx View Post
    Friend,

    Disney doesn't 'despise men and boys'.

    Disney doesn't give a shit either way.
    /QUOTE]

    I'm gonna disagree with you here Maxx. While there might not be a lot of utility in knowing the intent of someone who is actively trying to murder you, the best assumption (occam's razor) is they actually intend to kill you.

    Disney makes movies that portray males in a negative light and narrates these stories as though this is fair or ethical treatment. I consider this to be immoral propaganda.

    I am very sympathetic to naked capitalists pursuing the almighty dollar (which is why 77 cents stat is such obvious hogwash), and therefore sympathetic to not blaming corps for meeting demand. My problem is that the MSM is not reactively supplying what is demanded, rather they (and the rest of hollywood) are trendsetting social values.

    In 1950s America men were honored and respected. In 2015, they are portrayed as cowards and evil in a significant portion of commercials. Yes culture changed quasi voluntarily, but the news media and the entertainment industry LEAD THE WAY. And even to this day, they are more leftwing, more antifamily, more anti male than the "center right" conservative nation it supplies information to.

    They have an agenda, and are not just supplying a fix to a drug user, they are pushing the limits of that addiction past what the user currently craves.

    This is why they are an immoral corporation.

    Sitting idly by in a morally neutral position of just supplying the fix is one thing (at least inert), but pushing the boundaries of the male hate is clearly immoral. It is sacrificing the almighty dollar to change cultural values. It is not naked capitalism, it is anti male social activism and it hurts their bottom line.

    TLDR; they would make more money in a center-right nation making more Jesus and Noah movies and bashing men less. They don't. They are activists. This is a deliberate propaganda movement. They. are. not. naked. capitalists.
    You just said my point in a much better way.
    The alternative to Disney is certainly Dreamworks and WB/DC. Dreamworks captured the male demographic that Disney lost.
    They double down on the flawed characters, Shrek is a hideous ogre, and very flawed and the princess also turns into one.
    Disney on the other hand is stupid enough to turn a very flawed Prince of Persia into a generic and bland prince and the interesting multi-dimentional Princess into a generic sassy action girl, which the girl from Star Wars will also become.
    Also Star Wars, from its very conception according to Lucas himself, was a children's movie and it still is. Comparing those to adult movies like Scarface and Raging Bull is wrong.

  7. #17
    Just came across this... Let's make it viral. :-)

    When a woman says to a man 'IF you really love me you would (INSERT VERB HERE)... 'IF you really love me you should buy/give/take/do X, Y, Z'... That's using...that's testing. And my answer to that is always; 'IF you loved me you wouldn't have asked that fucking question, now pack your shit and get the fuck out of my house.' - Maxx


    Asking a feminist about men's rights is like asking a cattle rancher about veganism.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Maxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shephardjhon View Post
    Disney on the other hand is stupid enough to turn a very flawed Prince of Persia into a generic and bland prince and the interesting multi-dimentional Princess into a generic sassy action girl, which the girl from Star Wars will also become.
    How about we cross that bridge when we come to it instead of jumping to conclusions in advance?

    Quote Originally Posted by shephardjhon View Post
    Also Star Wars, from its very conception according to Lucas himself, was a children's movie and it still is. Comparing those to adult movies like Scarface and Raging Bull is wrong.
    This is simply untrue. Lucas is an idiot who didn't understand the first thing about his own franchise that's why he almost rammed the entire thing into the ground with those shitty prequels.

    This idea that star wars is a children's movie and so lacks flawed complex characters is untrue...Let's explore some of the key characters from the original movies...

    OBI WAN - Lies to Luke about his father's identity and his father's fate. This proves to be an error that plunges Luke into a confrontation he almost doesn't make it out of.

    LUKE - ignores the advice of his master Yoda and rushes to confront Vader with his training incomplete. And we know how that turned out for him.

    YODA - Dismisses Luke as too old to become a Jedi upon meeting him. He also assures Luke that Vader cannot be turned and must be confronted and slayed.

    LEIA - blue balls Han Solo and leads on her own (secret) brother Luke (ops). She also puts the trio into a garbage compacter them almost die in.

    LANDO - Sells out Han to Vader and Bobo Fett in exchange for allowing C3PO, Chewie and Leia to go free.

    HAN SOLO - Shoots Greedo in cold blood, is a smuggler and former EMPLOYEE of Jabba The Hutt the guy who keeps hookers on leashes and feeds them to his pet beast. He also doesn't give a fuck saving a princess or looking out for any one but himself.

    The ORIGINAL Star Wars movies are FULL of complex multi-layered characters. Large because of the involvement of people not named George Lucas.

    I don't want ever character in everything being reduced to a flat mary sue.. I don't care about the gender. Characters without doubts and flaws suck. They aren't human or 'real'.
    "Being a cunt doesn't make you wrong." ComradePrescott

  9. #19
    Senior Member Maxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by canbeserious View Post
    I'm gonna disagree with you here Maxx. While there might not be a lot of utility in knowing the intent of someone who is actively trying to murder you, the best assumption (occam's razor) is they actually intend to kill you.

    Disney makes movies that portray males in a negative light and narrates these stories as though this is fair or ethical treatment. I consider this to be immoral propaganda.
    Maybe. But does it lead or does it follow.

    My argument is that it follows much more than it leads.

    You want a feminist ramming feminism down everyone's throats try Joss Whedon.

    Disney has to sell it's movies in Korea and China...there's a tipping point. There's only so much feminism they can toss in there to secure western audiences at the risk of losing more lucrative markets elsewhere where feminist nonsense doesn't fly.

    Quote Originally Posted by canbeserious View Post
    I am very sympathetic to naked capitalists pursuing the almighty dollar (which is why 77 cents stat is such obvious hogwash), and therefore sympathetic to not blaming corps for meeting demand. My problem is that the MSM is not reactively supplying what is demanded, rather they (and the rest of hollywood) are trendsetting social values.

    In 1950s America men were honored and respected. In 2015, they are portrayed as cowards and evil in a significant portion of commercials. Yes culture changed quasi voluntarily, but the news media and the entertainment industry LEAD THE WAY. And even to this day, they are more leftwing, more antifamily, more anti male than the "center right" conservative nation it supplies information to.
    Agree with this. Especially when it comes to news media.

    But when it comes to entertainment you can't straight up alienate conservatives with left wing BS. From a movie makers POV the conservative the liberal and the buddist all pay the same price of admission.

    Most young people in the west today are social justice douchebags. Therefore media aimed at them is gonna have to reflect those values rather than challenge them in order to turn a profit.

    Quote Originally Posted by canbeserious View Post
    They have an agenda, and are not just supplying a fix to a drug user, they are pushing the limits of that addiction past what the user currently craves.

    This is why they are an immoral corporation.
    Their agenda is making money. Sometimes they have to appease feminists and SJWs to do so.

    Women and girls LEAD the market.

    Most families in the west are broken. Mothers have custody. They decide what their sons and daughters see for the most part at the movies.

    Women and girls turn moving viewing into a communal thing, they invite other women and take other women's children. Men watch movies alone. They download movies illegally or they prefer to take their kid to task on a video game.

    Women lead the market. That's reflected in the out put.

    Quote Originally Posted by canbeserious View Post
    Sitting idly by in a morally neutral position of just supplying the fix is one thing (at least inert), but pushing the boundaries of the male hate is clearly immoral. It is sacrificing the almighty dollar to change cultural values. It is not naked capitalism, it is anti male social activism and it hurts their bottom line.
    If it hurt their bottom line they wouldn't do it.

    Disney is like a giant shark. If it starts doing something that causes it to starve it'll change.

    Quote Originally Posted by canbeserious View Post
    TLDR; they would make more money in a center-right nation making more Jesus and Noah movies and bashing men less. They don't. They are activists. This is a deliberate propaganda movement. They. are. not. naked. capitalists.
    That's the US. Movies made in the US don't have to sell just in the US, where as you rightly point out there is a massive and often ignored Christian audience hollywood liberals aren't interested in engaging all that much.

    But on the flip side how well do you think Christian stuff travels across the none Christian markets?

    Everyone loves a giant robot or Megan Fox in a bra and panties but Jesus? He's got his limitations in china and the middle east. As does liberal feminist BS.

    Yeh you need to nod to it to pander to western women that drive the market here in the west. Especially when it comes to kids movies. But you can't over egg it as you lose the Chinese and whoever else.
    "Being a cunt doesn't make you wrong." ComradePrescott

  10. #20
    saw the movie, and Oh my Fuck, Rey is probably one of the worst Mary Sue's I have ever seen.


    what is worse is that people are praising her as if she is some kind of great character


    no doubt this will encourage writers to put more Mary Sues in their stories, as this seems to be what people want

    welp

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