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Thread: An open letter to Andrew.

  1. #11

    RE: An open letter to Andrew.

    I've been mulling your comment over for a while now, letting my thoughts on it arrange themselves over my day.

    Firstly: I think it'll be good if you make sure to tell why you ask the questions you're going to ask as you ask them. Knowing the motivation of the 'asker' often influences the disposition of the 'askee' a lot.
    Secondly: It would have to be a very special person I would make to walk through fire as, apparently, Andrew makes you. I think this is not to make you suffer but to make you see his position. If I didn't care very deeply for someone, I wouldn't put such a lot of effort into showing them my side of the fence.
    Thirdly: The following is not a question I posit to you (i.e. I don't expect an answer), but one that you may want to answer yourself: Why do you feel ashamed?
    I would imagine that it's maybe because you had an image in your mind that went something like "M(H)RA = oppressive fucktards". Maybe I'm completely wrong. But if it's something along those lines: Keep in mind that this is how we're characterized by a lot of media, it's the common narrative. It's normal for humans to believe what we're told if the source seems trustworthy. If you were suspicious of everything you're told, you would soon require a tinfoil hat, and maybe a straight jacket.
    Were I in your position I would rather feel tentatively proud that I am prepared to have my deeply held beliefs challenged. Sure, you did not do it on your own accord, you might have needed a push. But you did not ignore that push either.

    So, yeah, I'm looking forward to that first question and hope your ordeal here isn't quite as ordeal-ish as you fear.

  2. #12

    RE: An open letter to Andrew.

    Thank you Andres.

    Tracy is not my real life name nor is it for my tl Andrew. When I made my intro I almost put my rl name down but baulked at the last moment and I am glad I did. What would become of me on my home board should others find me here? There is a long history of my being there. It is my online home and I have made good friends there where our roots have grown deep.

    I needed to say this to you and here before I continue hopefully as a real member of some sort. There was no way I would have told you that information had my expectations here were not challenged as they have been. There will be no guile from me when it comes to making the motivations for my questions known. It seems true that as long as I stick to the rules of the board my personalty, gender or politics make no difference. I am still scratching my head over this as I can assure you on my home board this is not the case.

    Andrew is special to me and he is forcing me to see through his eyes as a man as a condition for us communicating again without the middle party being the Internet and unidirectional to me only. I cannot lie I despise this process he has outlined and I say that to you only so you appreciate that primary motivation. I don't think I will change my beliefs ever so I do not want to go into this "Tour of reverses" as the poor girl who by ordeals of fire was lifted up by MHRAs from her serfdom and ignorance to one day truly see the light.

    If you reverse the genders for a moment would you say it differently on my home board were they ever accept you there? This is not a snipe at you at all, just my small offering a small window to see through from another angle.

    Your third question is very good and it is precisely that content I am to ask about with my first question via Andrew. You suprise me with insight and I am already braced for the week ahead. Thank you Andres.

  3. #13

    RE: An open letter to Andrew.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andres

    Secondly: It would have to be a very special person I would make to walk through fire as, apparently, Andrew makes you. I think this is not to make you suffer but to make you see his position. If I didn't care very deeply for someone, I wouldn't put such a lot of effort into showing them my side of the fence.
    Well put, Andres.

    I would say "see and respect" his position, and to genuinely do so. Not to just see the other side, but learn to appreciate it and its validity.

    If Andrew is truly asking you to do this, there is something much deeper than 'just get through the trial'. If Andrew doesn't see a difference when all is done, it could be all for not.

    Andrew surely also wants to know that care and respect are mutual.

    I sincerely hope it works out for you both.

  4. #14

    RE: An open letter to Andrew.

    You are right that I will dread the responses. Not only that, but I am to ask deeper to every person on each thread at least one time for the proceeding week. If I do not validate and with sincerity then the deal's off. He says he will take that as a sign of my not taking him seriously. He is obviously had much time to think of all angles it seems. The whole thing is distasteful with its walk of shame but I choose to walk it and so be it.

    I have to make sure I have all the boxes ticked as there are quite a few.
    An interesting story.

    We'll try to help.

  5. #15

    RE: An open letter to Andrew.

    I think protecting one's privacy is a basic right for anyone. As you said: It's not who you are that matters here, it's what you write and do.

    A lot of MHRAs have chosen to remain anonymous for the very reason you do: Because we would run the risk of being ostracised by the very people we hold dear (or at least those who sign our pay checks, which is dear to me, too) if our involvement became known.

    And if I went to a feminist platform, I would certainly never say who I was in real life. The case of Erin Pizzey taught me that. I would probably even use a proxy system so they couldn't readily locate me by IP. Would I create a fake identity? I don't think so. I would not give them 'real' information about myself, but upon inquiry I would tell them that it's none of their concern. Which would blow my cover quite quickly, I'm sure.


    Similarly to corbyworld, I do not think Andrew sent you here to be 'converted'. We're not a religion anyhow. We're also not climbers, and we do not elevate 'to our level' since there is no 'our level' or indeed any level. I think his main goal was that you know his convictions and accept his views as just as valid as your own.
    Acknowledging someone else's point does not mean that one's own points are any less valid (unless of course those points are opposed to each other).

  6. #16

    RE: An open letter to Andrew.

    Quote Originally Posted by MH RAant

    Andrew is special to me and he is forcing me to see through his eyes as a man as a condition for us communicating again without the middle party being the Internet and unidirectional to me only. I cannot lie I despise this process he has outlined and I say that to you only so you appreciate that primary motivation. I don't think I will change my beliefs ever so I do not want to go into this "Tour of reverses" as the poor girl who by ordeals of fire was lifted up by MHRAs from her serfdom and ignorance to one day
    Tracy, I'm fascinated by your turn of phrase here...on one hand loving Andrew but hating the process he is expecting from you. It implies you are a victim of his wims. I'm calling you out on this: - if you are doing this because you feel controlled, then don't do it. You have agency and choice to block emails from him and get on with your life as you see fit. If you are doing this out of free-will because you want to learn and understand, then drop the loathing and be prepared to approach this in the possibility that you may be mistaken in your position as a feminist. Use your intellect, not your emotions to guide you.

  7. #17

    RE: An open letter to Andrew.

    We do have article from a transgender this may help you find your answers From woman to man to red pill
    Interested in men rights activism in the Sydney area ?
    Go to mensrightssydney.com

  8. #18

    RE: An open letter to Andrew.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimee McGee

    Tracy, I'm fascinated by your turn of phrase here...on one hand loving Andrew but hating the process he is expecting from you. It implies you are a victim of his wims. I'm calling you out on this: - if you are doing this because you feel controlled, then don't do it. You have agency and choice to block emails from him and get on with your life as you see fit. If you are doing this out of free-will because you want to learn and understand, then drop the loathing and be prepared to approach this in the possibility that you may be mistaken in your position as a feminist. Use your intellect, not your emotions to guide you.
    To Aimee McGee.

    My emotions have me here out of love and my emotions have me wanting not to be here also. I am ruled by the greater of the two. Intellectually you are right, but that, with my time here, is smaller than the stronger part of my emotions also. If nothing else I will learn many things here by osmosis I am sure.

    Would you approach this with a similar possibility that you might be mistaken with your position as an MHRA if you decided to do a "tour of reverses" on an ultra feminist site?

    If you hesitate in your mind at that question (and that is perfectly expected for anyone in a polar opposite environment I'd think) then it could mean you agree, if partially? .

  9. #19

    RE: An open letter to Andrew.

    Tracy,
    Like most women who have gone through tertiary education since the 1970s, I've been exposed to feminist thought. What sat uncomfortably with me was the value placed on victimhood. Try as I did, I could not reconcile the narrative of oppression I heard with my experiences as a woman. No man had ever tried to oppress me, but by the time I was at University I had repeated experience of being othered by women because I did not fit into the narrow confines of 'normal' for a woman.
    I was fortunate to encounter through my faith community an alternative model of feminine identity which reinforced the one illustrated by the women in my family of origin, so I could be strong, outspoken and have a reason to avoid conforming to the conventions of feminine beauty.
    My journey until 3 years ago has been more or less solitary, with my activism targeting issues of disability, as it was disability that was part of the root cause of my experience of being other. I figured I could do something to help other disabled people feel less different than I did. It was love that had me seeking more information and advice. My beloved is a survivor of domestic abuse. I had need to understand a male experience of being unable to leave because he feared for his children. It was that seeking information that ultimately led me here to a group seeking equality for all individuals.
    Your fears that your web community will other you for being here are legitimate - but ultimately if a group can not tolerate the desire of members to challenge the status quo, it is not a group I'm prepared to be a part of. I've been there and done that most of my earlier life, and I don't have the need to repeat that experience.
    Here I can disagree with other folk, but as long as I avoid shaming language and do not threaten violence, I can stay. I had a very interesting and challenging experience with a post I made on hypergamy, which shifted my perspective from my original thinking, but it was because of rational debate not threats of being marginalised.
    So as you can see, I'm willing to use rational processes with testing if my thinking is mistaken, but I'm not going to be emotionally coerced into changing my mind.
    I suspect those on your forum would ban me rather than be prepared to address issues on those terms.

  10. #20

    RE: An open letter to Andrew.

    Hi MH RAant
    Thank you for sharing.
    I can see you are dealing with a deep personal hurt and a difficult conflict.
    Being here is clearly a huge personal challenge for you.
    I am sorry to hear your pain and wish you well.
    I hope this forum can help you.
    Best wishes
    HnE

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