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Thread: The Wonder Woman movie is another example of male bashing.

  1. #11
    Senior Member Anonymous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plato the 2nd View Post
    WW is seen as great stuff by most feminists, here's an example,

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/quor..._17124156.html

    In my opinion,*Wonder Woman*is a huge step forward for the feminist movement. The last few years have seen progress for women, most notably Rey’s introduction to the Star Wars universe and the amazing Taraji P. Henson, Octavia Spencer, and Janelle Monae in*Hidden Figures, as well as Ava Duvernay taking the helm of*A Wrinkle in Time. But*Wonder Woman*is groundbreaking for the feminist movement for other reasons, as well.

    Wonder Woman*makes feminism look artful and effortless. It’s the kind of movie that can shift institutional sexism, and I hope we see countless more like it.

    Maybe the fact that nobody here has shared my Facebook page is that it's seen as an ego trip by me. Well, I'm not going to relentlessly plug it, but the reason it matters is this. AVM does a great job as a site of information and support, but if you want to change the world, even a bit, you've got to engage those who don't agree with us. That's what feminists did, and from their early efforts in the 60's came the tsunami of today's feminism. My little story isn't going to move mountains, but if it's widely shared on FB it will cause people to think in a way they haven't before. A light hearted action tale, but where the bad guys are bad girls, will be a shock, and provoke some to wonder if the dismay they feel, as some will, at violence against women being seen as entertainment, should apply to the many, many films that present violence against men in that way.
    Guys, it'll only take a few minutes of your time to share the page, let's get thousands to see it on FB, and get a conversation started in the wider community. And 'shift a bit of institutional sexism'.
    Look dude, no offense to you, but my FB is tied to my real life, my real name and my real address, i ain´t gonna broadcast to everyone what y views are in this day and age where such things can cost you dearly.
    I sexually identify as a sword pommel, check your privilege or i will have to end you RIGHTLY.

  2. #12
    That's disturbing, Anonymous, that you're wary of saying what you believe. Freedom of speech is seen, rightly in my view, as one of our most important rights, but I do understand your caution. Expressing a view contrary to the feminist orthodoxy can cause you trouble. My name's on my FB profile, and I'm aware I may upset some people with what I say about WW and feminism in general, but I've always said what I think. I'm not criticising yourself though, we all do what we think is best.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by astr592 View Post
    I saw it. Didn't bother me. Thought it was an entertaining movie and had a good male character with Chris Pune's Steve Trevor. The leftist media of course will act like it's the greatest thing ever of course since it has a female lead
    Would you have viewed it any differently if WW were killing women?

  4. #14
    Senior Member mr_e's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plato the 2nd View Post
    That's disturbing, Anonymous, that you're wary of saying what you believe. Freedom of speech is seen, rightly in my view, as one of our most important rights, but I do understand your caution. Expressing a view contrary to the feminist orthodoxy can cause you trouble. My name's on my FB profile, and I'm aware I may upset some people with what I say about WW and feminism in general, but I've always said what I think. I'm not criticising yourself though, we all do what we think is best.

    What he's saying is true though. And like it or not, Men are stuck paying the bills. If he gets shit-canned, then he's up the creek.
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  5. #15
    Senior Member Deidre's Avatar
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    Think I'll opt to see ''47 Meters Down'', instead. I'm not into movies that promote violence against anyone, but it seems that most movies glorify women hurting men, and the best solution is to boycott those films by not seeing them. Regardless if you feel that the tone of the movie didn't have an effect on you, it does have an adverse effect on our culture.
    Last edited by Deidre; 07-01-2017 at 03:43 AM.

  6. #16
    Senior Member voidspawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deidre View Post
    Think I'll opt to see ''47 Meters Down'', instead. I'm not into movies that promote violence against anyone, but it seems that most movies glorify women hurting men, and the best solution is to boycott those films by not seeing them. Regardless if you feel that the tone of the movie didn't have an effect on you, it does have an adverse effect on our culture.
    Good position to take. As someone old enough to remember some of the original launch stories, I get annoyed at the way characters are subverted, and the way the original creators, in this case two men (fembots ignore that fact - males creating female gender positive characters) have their character corrupted. There was a subtlety to Wonder Woman (name is terrible but wth), in that Themyscira was based on Greek myths of Amazons who were a male excluding society, they killed men and boys who arrived on that island. That was based on a long standing enmity, in the past that was caused by the controlling nature of Gods, some trying to control through gifts of magic and others through deception, but the yadda yadda backstory didn't really matter, it was a flip flop of rebels becoming the new oppressors. Diana as a character was appealing because she went against the grain of her society's sexism, she was motivated by justice. In all of those characters at the time, it was justice that was the highest principle and endlessly explored. It was lapped up by fans like myself.

    The corruption of warped justice as an excuse to beat up, and now to just kill is the modern version. The first corruption was the WW2 use of comics that didn't help quality story telling based on characters who sought justice, WW2 propaganda rapidly warped stories to rather hate promoting / justify killing agendas. Now we see the same thing, it's ruthless violence, stereotyping and misrepresenting classes of people, attaching the evil trait to them and then it's okay to slaughter them. This has never been done to women, never once have I ever seen the mindless slaughter of women portrayed as a social good, how many times do we have to watch that being done to men not only as entertainment but promoted as a social good.

    It does have an adverse effect on culture, but worse also is that our culturally dominant forces (like the media) already regard it as okay, it's deeply embedded. That is demonstrated by the countless real events of genocidal acts against males that are ignored.
    Last edited by voidspawn; 07-01-2017 at 11:59 AM.
    "...especially when it comes to communication, it can be observed, if it is not a negotiation it's a war."
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  7. #17
    Senior Member Deidre's Avatar
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    Great post, voidspawn. It makes one wonder though...are movies an illustration of our culture or do they shape the culture? I thought that while reading your post. Same with presidents. The losing side gets angry at a new president but doesn't that new president merely reflect the choice of society? (Majority)

    I don't like super hero movies, in general. Mainly because it creates this idea that we aren't good enough as humans to solve our problems, that we need to be super human. Or we need a super hero to idolize and those films are often lost on me. I like realistic plots a bit better, especially stories of human triumph against adversity.

  8. #18
    Senior Member voidspawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deidre View Post
    Great post, voidspawn. It makes one wonder though...are movies an illustration of our culture or do they shape the culture? I thought that while reading your post. Same with presidents. The losing side gets angry at a new president but doesn't that new president merely reflect the choice of society? (Majority)

    I don't like super hero movies, in general. Mainly because it creates this idea that we aren't good enough as humans to solve our problems, that we need to be super human. Or we need a super hero to idolize and those films are often lost on me. I like realistic plots a bit better, especially stories of human triumph against adversity.
    I liked the fantastical element of super heroes, seeing impossible stuff, aliens, magic etc. But that was as a child and with some sentimental hangover as an adult. As a guide for living they are crap. How many times are we as normal human beings portrayed as too dumb to get away from falling buildings without superheroes to save us. What's worse is that each and every one of these movies portrays the police, fire service etc - our real protectors as half-wits. Like everyone did here, I've no doubt that you probably followed 9/11 live as it happened. The profound I can't believe my eyes feeling surpassed by total awe towards the firefighters who went in to save people, and shock at the building collapsing whilst they were still in it. Courage is needed where it can go wrong, and it's more than likely to go horribly wrong, as much as silly fantasy can pretend to capture, it pushes forward a profoundly stupid message that it will be all okay if we pick the right heroes and set them over us. Those are benevolent dictator stories, and benevolent dictator stories are there to prepare children to accept dictatorships. When we see mob behaviour of SJW's we should also note how they sheepishly follow their leaders. Normally the vilest and nastiest that become the heroes to the sheeple.

    I think I'll probably always have a soft spot for fantasy tales but totally agree, the stories I want to learn from are those that teach me to do stuff or how to work with others to get stuff done.

    Really good question about reflection of society, and in the past I think they were mostly. But movies have a very long history as deliberate propaganda, Germany, UK, Russia, US, China etc:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...f_World_War_II
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...933%E2%80%9345
    http://www.imdb.com/list/ls076748682/

    It's a huge area, and it goes deep into society even now. It's done because it works. Not individually, you don't just make one and forget it, it is used to establish and sell a narrative.

    The connection to that and reflecting society I think is more complex. Firstly it's about the part of society with the voice and reach reflecting what they want to the others. Democracies end up divided into very transitory flip flops of winners and losers, each aiming to establish when they can it's like opposing camps tossing a coin for the megaphone. Then preaching at the crowd. These people pay so little attention to the crowd as they are so desperate to preach at them, they don't have time to reflect them.

    The latest multi gender nonsense is not a reflection of reality, there aren't 58 genders living on every average street. It has little to do with reflecting reality or society, apart from one aspect, who is being pushed to gain social ascendency. Who gets to be listened to by the powers that be. This is the division trick, sure it's reflecting part of society, the currently favoured mob, who must protect the hierarchy in return for its favour, and the disrespect the unfavoured mob who must beg and woo the hierarchy for support. It's a case of heads or tails, incumbent power wins as it gets to decide.

    What we are seeing now are two things which change our perception, firstly the struggle between hierarchies for control, between political class, media class, finance class, socialist etc is playing out in very visible vitriolic terms and because our media is so apparent you can pretty much see every move being played out, as they mock and set up each other. Secondly the speed things now play out, in this information age things just happen insanely fast, no more year long production project for movies and literature with all the planning, propaganda can be rapidly produced and A/B tested pretty much instantaneously. For spectators like us, who try desperately not to get sucked into the stupidity we can watch bewildered but I think morbidly fascinated. Every time I read through the news articles posted here, I think morbid fascination is the most honest way I can describe my reaction to most articles posted.

    I think this speed of information is a new factor, and it makes it really hard to discern what is shaped by something that reflects us or at least some of us, and what is deliberate attempts to shape us. Attempts to shape us, aren't going to work for the longer term, but again that isn't the objective, the aim is to set up new masters and strip down and weaken potential threats. If we look at who really has taken a bashing in this period, it's working class men. The very groups who did most of the heavy lifting in shifting the old order based on aristocracy, now being beaten down and vilified as oppressors. It doesn't convince working class men that they are oppressors but it convinces them people hate them, and the small minded bullies are more than happy to take a power trip at someone else's expense use it with glee. No new story there, but nowadays whenever I watch any group being extolled or destroyed, I just wonder what story are we going to be sold next year, when everyone is bored with this one. Never thought I'd see it like this but conservatism has become a revolutionary act, times are crazy because they are happening at a rate and noise level that is no longer within human tolerances for processing and understanding new information.
    Last edited by voidspawn; 07-02-2017 at 10:41 AM.
    "...especially when it comes to communication, it can be observed, if it is not a negotiation it's a war."
    Quote Originally Posted by menrppl2 View Post
    Can't live with em, life is great without them.

  9. #19
    Geena Davis founded an institute to promote what she believes to be gender equality in the movie industry, some may know of it. They have a Facebook page,
    https://www.facebook.com/GDIGM/
    If you go there you'll see they've made a piece of software called the Geena Davis Index Quotient (GD-IQ), that measures the amount of time in popular movies given to male and female characters. They also think Wonder Woman is great. I made the point that men get most of the time in WW, as their the ones being slaughtered! And I made a comment on their FB page, and as they pre-moderate I don't think they'll allow it to show on the page. I made a comment on the review of WW in the Guardian, the most liberal of British newspapers, about the violence in the film being against men, and how that isn't equality, and the comment was promptly deleted by the mods. Feminists, it seems, don't tolerate discussion. Still, I maybe wrong, and perhaps Ms Davis FB page will publish my comment. For your information, this is what I submitted,

    GD-IQ shows men have more time on screen than women in popular tv and film. That's true of Wonder Woman, as German soldiers are lined up for slaughter, and if there was a study of the male/female proportion of violent death in action films it would show most of those killed are men. WW, like other movie heroines, and heroes, kills men in numbers, and we're told this is gender equality. I disagree. I've written a short story of a gang of female criminals who are taken down, violently, by a tough heroine, as I want to see if people react the same way when violence against women is presented as violence against men so commonly is, that is, as entertainment. In time I'll complete an illustrated version of this tale, as so far, reviews have been positive. I won't give a link here to where my story is, but I will say that those who find WW so empowering for women, and such thrilling entertainment, could ask themselves if they'd have felt the same if the people WW battered were female. Or even, should violence ever be presented as entertainment?

  10. #20
    Senior Member Mifune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plato the 2nd View Post
    And I made a comment on their FB page, and as they pre-moderate I don't think they'll allow it to show on the page. I made a comment on the review of WW in the Guardian, the most liberal of British newspapers, about the violence in the film being against men, and how that isn't equality, and the comment was promptly deleted by the mods. Feminists, it seems, don't tolerate discussion.
    I find this trend extremely disheartening. There can never be any discussion, never any coming together when one side completely and irrevocably shuts out the other.

    I was recently blocked on a feminist leaning site. I'm still unsure why. It could have been the Penn and Teller video that I posted explaining why the Militia part of the 2nd Amendment doesn't actually change the meaning. I would entertain arguments as to why it wasn't correct, but it certainly wasn't "abusive" or "trolling"

    The only other thing it really could have been was a post implying that there might, just maybe be reasons a person might carry a firearm other than shaking paranoia and fear. That maybe some people carry so they'll be in a position to help others should the need arise Again, I don't see how that could be argued as abusive or trolling

    But, the thing is, these feminist, and many "left-leaning" websites have decided that anything short of rigid adherence to their ideology is "trolling" and deserves / needs to be shut down.

    Hell, if you watch any of the VidCon BS you can see that Anita Sarkeesian honestly believes that arguments against her position are harassment.

    Yet in the very same thread people will scream about how the right doesn't communicate, they just want violence Their "opposition" is deliberately being caricatured. Couple that with the shutting out of dissenting opinions and you have rather effective "othering" And othering is the rationalization that precedes violence. Well, it wouldn't be okay to hurt a person, but <Race A> people aren't human like <Race B> people Well, it wouldn't be okay to hurt a person, but <Religion A> people aren't really human like <Religion B> people Well, it wouldn't be okay to hurt a person, but <Political Affiliation A> people aren't human like <Political Affiliation B> people.
    But if you even point out how dangerous the de-humanizing of groups of people are, then you're banned for not being on board the hate train.

    I can't help but wonder if technology is bringing people together in even remotely close to the same numbers as it's driving people apart.

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    Last edited by Mifune; 07-02-2017 at 03:30 AM.
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