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Thread: The Wonder Woman movie is another example of male bashing.

  1. #21
    Mifune, I share your dismay that arguments contrary to feminist orthodoxy are being silenced at every opportunity. My comment on Geena Davis#s FB page hasn't appeared, and as comments there appear in numbers each day, it's clear they won't allow mine.
    30 years ago I had sympathy with feminism, I felt women had grounds for complaint, but today feminism is totally bonkers. It's like a religion, extreme and refusing to allow any discussion outside the parameters feminist thinkers have determined. I don't think it represents women now, but it is having an impact on society. That's why I'd like people to like my FB page, to comment on it, even if you don't agree with my analysis, it'll start a little alternative conversation to that of the feminists. We can encourage each other here, but if you want to change the world you've got to speak to the world, and Facebook is a good place to start.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspawn View Post
    Good position to take. As someone old enough to remember some of the original launch stories, I get annoyed at the way characters are subverted, and the way the original creators, in this case two men (fembots ignore that fact - males creating female gender positive characters) have their character corrupted. There was a subtlety to Wonder Woman (name is terrible but wth), in that Themyscira was based on Greek myths of Amazons who were a male excluding society, they killed men and boys who arrived on that island. That was based on a long standing enmity, in the past that was caused by the controlling nature of Gods, some trying to control through gifts of magic and others through deception, but the yadda yadda backstory didn't really matter, it was a flip flop of rebels becoming the new oppressors. Diana as a character was appealing because she went against the grain of her society's sexism, she was motivated by justice. In all of those characters at the time, it was justice that was the highest principle and endlessly explored. It was lapped up by fans like myself.

    The corruption of warped justice as an excuse to beat up, and now to just kill is the modern version. The first corruption was the WW2 use of comics that didn't help quality story telling based on characters who sought justice, WW2 propaganda rapidly warped stories to rather hate promoting / justify killing agendas. Now we see the same thing, it's ruthless violence, stereotyping and misrepresenting classes of people, attaching the evil trait to them and then it's okay to slaughter them. This has never been done to women, never once have I ever seen the mindless slaughter of women portrayed as a social good, how many times do we have to watch that being done to men not only as entertainment but promoted as a social good.

    It does have an adverse effect on culture, but worse also is that our culturally dominant forces (like the media) already regard it as okay, it's deeply embedded. That is demonstrated by the countless real events of genocidal acts against males that are ignored.
    I agree, especially with the bit I've emboldened. In the case of the WW film, as in so many other instances, the justification for inflicting violence is simply that those being battered and killed are men. No more justification, it's assumed, is needed. Yet the men WW destroys are simply soldiers, doing their duty, as America, and the UK, expect their soldiers to do.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Deidre View Post
    Great post, voidspawn. It makes one wonder though...are movies an illustration of our culture or do they shape the culture? I thought that while reading your post. Same with presidents. The losing side gets angry at a new president but doesn't that new president merely reflect the choice of society? (Majority)

    I don't like super hero movies, in general. Mainly because it creates this idea that we aren't good enough as humans to solve our problems, that we need to be super human. Or we need a super hero to idolize and those films are often lost on me. I like realistic plots a bit better, especially stories of human triumph against adversity.
    Me too. One female led film I love is Alien. Firstly because of the awesome alien created by Mr Geiger, that the film isn't anti-male, and that the heroine, Ripley, is no super human, just a gutsy individual who does her best.

  4. #24
    Voidspawn, your message number 18 is profoundly thought provoking, but for the moment I'd like to concentrate on this extract.

    *movies have a very long history as deliberate propaganda, Germany, UK, Russia, US, China etc:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...f_World_War_II
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...933%E2%80%9345
    http://www.imdb.com/list/ls076748682/

    It's a huge area, and it goes deep into society even now. It's
    done because it works. Not individually, you don't just make one and forget it, it is used to establish and sell a narrative.

    Propaganda in film in our free western world is more subtle, but even more effective at brain washing than that of dictatorships. There's an apparent diversity in the moral arguments put forward in the fantasy's of our cinema, and tv. But apart from the occasional exception that diversity is contained within a particular, narrow, range. So it is with the feminist message in film, the message of different films will vary slightly, which then limits discussion to the same boundaries as the films. Any contrary opinion, if it's even allowed on say, a tv debate show, is ridiculed and dismissed as misogynistic nonsense. Condemned, or laughed at, but not discussed.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Manalysis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plato the 2nd View Post
    Propaganda in film in our free western world is more subtle
    You must be joking.

    but even more effective at brain washing than that of dictatorships.
    That, however, is very true.

    M

  6. #26
    Senior Member Deidre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plato the 2nd View Post
    Me too. One female led film I love is Alien. Firstly because of the awesome alien created by Mr Geiger, that the film isn't anti-male, and that the heroine, Ripley, is no super human, just a gutsy individual who does her best.
    Feel the same. That's a great example!

  7. #27
    Yesterday, for the first time, I came across Cassie Jay. I expect everybody here knows of her, and most likely have seen The Red Pill, so I'm a bit behind the crowd. To make up I've spent the last three hours watching reviews of the movie on Youtube and interviews with her. One comment by Cassie struck a chord with me, when she said men's rights activists were were asking if, in a variety of scenarios, "would this be acceptable if the gender roles were reversed." Plug for my story coming up! That was why I wrote an action tale of a heroine fighting bad girls, to see if people reacted the same way as they do to fiction were women slaughter men, as in Wonder Woman. There has been comments on my story in every web site I've mentioned it, except this one, which has surprised me. It's not my place to lecture people, but I am surprised that nobody here has seen fit to read this short tale and make a comment.

  8. #28
    Senior Member voidspawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plato the 2nd View Post
    Yesterday, for the first time, I came across Cassie Jay. I expect everybody here knows of her, and most likely have seen The Red Pill, so I'm a bit behind the crowd. To make up I've spent the last three hours watching reviews of the movie on Youtube and interviews with her. One comment by Cassie struck a chord with me, when she said men's rights activists were were asking if, in a variety of scenarios, "would this be acceptable if the gender roles were reversed." Plug for my story coming up! That was why I wrote an action tale of a heroine fighting bad girls, to see if people reacted the same way as they do to fiction were women slaughter men, as in Wonder Woman. There has been comments on my story in every web site I've mentioned it, except this one, which has surprised me. It's not my place to lecture people, but I am surprised that nobody here has seen fit to read this short tale and make a comment.
    I'd be interested in reading it, but I've missed the link to it. Also do have to admit, there is a large volume of material to keep up with and I fall behind quite often; basically every time work pressures gather up.

    Extremely relevant point you make about the reaction to female on female violence vs the reaction to female on male violence. It's been a big topic in MHRM discussion on the aspect as you state the double standards shown in portraying female on male violence. We do follow culturally commentating fiction, but also here especially there is a lot of reality to it, a lot of real experiences, a lot of really shitty experiences. Relationships with abusive partners, abusive mothers, witnessing the derogation of fathers, being set up by colleagues at work, false accusations and other horrible experiences. That isn't true for all people here, there are many members who have solid backgrounds and have made successful lives and relationships, and they come and join because they care about fairness, justice and the future. But you'll probably have a higher percentage of people here arriving because of bad experiences. For many years AVfM and this forum especially has literally been the only place for many many people to be able to say their red pill story and get a supportive perspective on it. We've all been reading each others stories and trying to suggest ways forward for quite some time, and the regulars are always ready to offer support to new arrivals.

    I think it's really great that you've created this story and pushed to publish it, and I look forward to hearing about it's progress and do hope that it makes a statement. It may seem topsy turvy that this is the slowest place to latch on to it, but perhaps that's because here it might be the rawest nerve or something. I'm sure the feedback you get will be interesting when it eventually starts flowing, but in many other places you'll get a faster response because it's so unusual a notion to those people that your story is their first exposure to it, here violent and abusive natures of people has had depth, breadth and nuance in it's discussion for some time.
    "...especially when it comes to communication, it can be observed, if it is not a negotiation it's a war."
    Quote Originally Posted by menrppl2 View Post
    Can't live with em, life is great without them.

  9. #29
    voidspawn, you make thought provoking points. Here's the link to 'They call her Petal',

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8z...ew?usp=sharing.

    It's a short read, 15 minutes at the most to completely read it.

  10. #30
    Senior Member voidspawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plato the 2nd View Post
    voidspawn, you make thought provoking points. Here's the link to 'They call her Petal',

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8z...ew?usp=sharing.

    It's a short read, 15 minutes at the most to completely read it.
    I've read it now. But firstly we do have a writer's corner forum, so if admin wants to move this that's cool, this reply is not on the OP topic.

    So I was interested in how successfully your piece reversed the gender roles, and on that I'd say you focused on one aspect and chucked on maybe one more. Those made a visible point.

    The focused aspects are which gender is portrayed as the receiving end for violence as entertainment, and the added one is your Fred character i.e. which gender is imbued with supernatural sensitive insight and can express themselves with artisan skills (in this case cooking) which leads to the interest and admiration of all but especially the opposite sex. Those bits I'd say you've ticked your boxes and offer up a fiction piece that can provoke some thoughts and discussion in people that are at least partially mindful towards such things.

    However for myself I would say that the literary criticism would blur out a lot the intended narrative challenge effect. The junk comic style reminds me heavily of the Exploitation film genre, and has too many tropes in common with the subgenre of that: 'Women in Prison' films. Though you've steered away from some of the iconic representations of those, others you've used full on.

    The male gender is represented, other than 'Fred' as dupes to be used, who deserve it because they are crooks or easily sexually exploited. Fred becomes the tokenistic good guy, but as a solo act this character once again reinforces the sexist 'one good man, the rest are disposable' trope. Which is one of the most pernicious anti male characterisations, pushing men into seeking the male role that serves and pleases women rather than building their own life. To challenge that don't need to remove Fred, but you do have to be willing to portray other male characters as holding equal worth and social value, including male characters who are not there to please or impress women, and male characters who are appealing to women simply from their male qualities, such as masculine, hard working, straight talking, etc. In your piece the male spectrum (which I acknowledge may be intentionally absent) go from crooked sex dupe to Fred with nothing else.

    However contextually to this piece character development is hardly a strong point. The females it seems are all pure comic book fantasy. Again this is likely an artefact of the genre you've chosen to use as a vehicle, but from super villainess to superheroine, all with the excessive sexual appeal icon, it pushes the piece deep into pure cartoon comic rather than graphic novel style. I use these visual type forms to describe it quite deliberately as everything reads like it was intended to be a visual piece, it reads like a series of storyboard panels of set piece violence with minimal linking plot - again I assume that is intentional but for myself it's of limited appeal. I do like something to have some plot, I really don't have a clue what the plot was in your piece. That on the one had reinforces your intent of violence as entertainment (with women doing it rather than men), but on the other detracts from any character connection or even being entertaining.

    This to me makes it flawed as a social commentary because it is very cartoony, it's violence in a silly film, despite some allusions through graphic type statements of violence, it reads like pretend, where plenty of tomato ketchup is thrown around and actors spit around a tic tac or two to represent broken teeth. The kind of depiction of violence where no one really gets hurt and the actors can all get up dust off and be ready for scene two, perhaps with a plaster on their cheek. I know you work at making the point about hospitalisation, but that's more like a gag than a consequence.

    This adds up to feeling like a piece which doesn't really hit the nerve it's intending to, and feels more like a parody or pastiche for the criticism of a genre which is already and intentionally visibly bad.

    This isn't putting the gender reversal to illustrate the male experience as targets of violence, that no one cares about other than how entertainingly they get dismembered, which goes hand in hand with the more damaging subtexts. I.e. males and females get killed for entertainment in certain genres, women in horror movies, men in action movies, and there is plenty of crossover for sure. But the subtext doesn't change, males are killed and the entertainment factor is men as a gender deserve it, they are brutes, dupes, creeps and the audience should be positively entertained by their demise, females are killed and the entertainment factor is emotional drama, they are victims, innocents, courageously but fatally defiant, the audience should feel for their plight.

    In a real sense in your piece I think you've cartooned it so much that even though you've attempted to make that point, it misses it. Your women are rubber dolls, CCG game sprites that not only can be regenerated back to their sexual power status for free but don't actually represent women. Making them pretty much universally male fantasy types, with constant references to tight fitting clothes and big boobs, gives this the edge of mud wrestling or a catfight at Hooters.

    However final note, challenging narrative is really hard, writing is a craft that even the best appeals to its segmented audience, and pulp fiction isn't my particular bag so I've limited commentary on it. You've done it at least, you've put words to it, created female characters and been willing to place them in both the roles of villain and hero with violence as their main thought pattern. That at least, will hopefully get some conversation from readers. As a writer you should definitely keep writing, and polishing your craft, sending up genres is probably a good idea. A good vehicle for getting message out without it being preaching.
    Last edited by voidspawn; 07-05-2017 at 10:13 AM.
    "...especially when it comes to communication, it can be observed, if it is not a negotiation it's a war."
    Quote Originally Posted by menrppl2 View Post
    Can't live with em, life is great without them.

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