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  1. #1
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    Recently Rabbit-Holed

    Hey, Everyone

    My name's Cam, I'm a 26 year old guy from Sydney, Australia, and I fit into a lot of boxes... Being categorised, specialised and medicalised again and again and again is part of what drew me to write on this forum, because no matter how well I was defined by social groups, educational institutions or doctors, there is a broader pattern to my problems that has been routinely overlooked.

    I am a man. The problems I'm going through aren't specific to me, they are men's issues. No one seems to want to admit that. No one understands that. No one wants to hear that.

    This is what people seem to want to hear (and what I used to believe):

    • I'm gay, and the problems I'm facing are because I am innately feminine, therefore patriarchy
    • Leaving home at an early age was due to discrimination for my sexuality, and thus my subsequent homelessness was because of patriarchy
    • Problems I faced with being from a lower socioeconomic class, facing issues of poverty and drug addiction were because of Capitalism and rich white men rigging the political system, therefore patriarchy
    • I've worked in the sex industry as a gay escort and in porn. The problems I've been facing in relation to that are feminine problems, because men slut-shame women and therefore patriarchy.
    • Problems I'd faced with experience of sexual abuse were issues that mostly women face, therefore patriarchy
    • Problems I'd had with my family were because my dad left my mother who had to raise me alone, therefore patriarchy
    • Problems I've been facing with education is because of my sexuality, work history and homelessness, which as we've already established, are clearly problems stemming from... you guessed it, patriarchy


    While all of these ideas are in our culture and have influenced me since I can remember, I began to live by this Feminist paradigm as an all-encompassing explanation for my life experiences since about 5 years ago, ever since watching Anita Sarkeesians' Feminist Frequency video about Damsel's in Distress in video games. I was an avid follower and defender of Fem Freq. I watched all of her videos twice-over, followed her news and media coverage and her event appearances. Watching the video of her speak at the Opera House motivated me to undergo study of Sociology. I would routinely get into arguments in Youtube and Facebook comments with guys online defending Feminism that would sometimes last for days (some of which I’m still getting notifications for). I would call men ‘Whiners, Losers, Ugly, Capitalist Pigs, White-Supremacists, Nazis, Individualists, Monsters, Scary, Rape-apologists, Misogynists, Racists, Homophobes, Chauvinists’ etc. etc. etc. It leaked from my online life into my personal life and effected my interactions with friends and family, too, who I would ‘call-out’ for saying anything that was potentially ‘misogynistic’.

    To put it mildly, I don’t think many of you would’ve liked me back then. I definitely didn’t like any of you.



    After watching the Red Pill Documentary, my head has been spinning. It’s like I’ve been lead blindfolded down a long, twisted path and have finally taken it off and am now wondering where the fuck I am. I’m studying a degree I have no interest in with students and teachers who are staunchly Feminist and disregard facts and science. I’m living in ‘Safe Space’ student accomodation around people who seek ramifications unless I remember their complicated non-binary pronouns and where “Kill all men” and “Smash the Patriarchy” is graffitied on walls. I’m no longer comfortable in the Queer Activist scenes at university, where members were organising demonstrations against the Red Pill screening at my university and ripping down posters around campus. Basically, I’m fucking lost right now and feeling cornered every direction I go. It’s not so easy just to detach myself from this environment and find new things to do and new people to talk to. A lot of these people are my friends and this is a community I’ve become a part of.

    I’m writing in this forum because I basically can’t concentrate anymore and need a place to put these thoughts where hopefully someone will listen. All I think about is Men’s Rights Activism and since I know I’m not allowed to talk about it I just end up thinking about it even more. I worry that my neighbours will find a way to Veto me and kick me out of the student accomodation here, because Safe Spaces were once used as a justification to kick a guy out just for cheating on his girlfriend and have been invoked to silence people countless times in the past. I worry that they’ll hear me watching Youtube videos about MRA’s and make negative assumptions about me. I’ve brought some of this up with university counsellors and my unit supervisors but they don’t understand and just recommend I get further medical help for depression and anxiety.



    This is where I’ve been driven to breaking point and I’ve been going completely mental… I have been diagnosed both with Asperger’s Syndrome and Attention Deficit Disorder. BOTH of those conditions are vastly overrepresented in men. Paul Elam talked about ADHD over diagnoses in boys and someone from the Men’s Rally in Canada talked about Autistic Spectrum overrepresentation in the Red Pill documentary! If wanting to talk about Men’s issues and being anxious about Feminism is a product of my anxious and depressed condition, then why is my condition also a Men’s right issue?



    

Even the very few people and avenues I’ve found to talk to about these things are incredibly limited. There is a Men’s society at my University but it was threatened with being banned, and only allowed to stay so long as they had a ‘women’s officer’, a ‘queer officer’ and ‘Person of Colour officer’ as representatives - a requirement only put in place since the formation of the Brosoc union and which is speculated as being put in place with the goal of shutting them down. I messaged telling them about these problems and was directed to the Queer officer who had little understanding or interest in any of the things I was saying. His view was that ‘toxic masculinity’ exists and that Brosoc was put in place to counter that, offering the ‘feminine ability’ of talking about feelings and problems as a means of combatting high suicide rates.

How did I land myself in such Batshit-crazy Feminist territory?

    You may ask…

 How did I let myself get into such batshit crazy Feminist territory?

    It might have seemed obvious to all of you from the get-go that Feminist Frequency was bullshit, but it isn't so simple for some people to see that, and I reckon it's worth explaining why I was so drawn in to Feminism by just a couple of Youtube videos. You also might be wondering what else other than getting laid could a male feminist possibly get out of being so attached to this ideology. I obviously never stood to gain from getting laid. I'm gay FFS. Why should I have been a feminist? There's obviously more reasons than just that why male feminists exist.



    The short answer is that Feminist Institutions currently have a stranglehold on the gay rights movement. Our community is encouraged to see the problems that gay men face in regards to disproportionate levels of drug & alcohol abuse, sex addiction, social isolation and suicide as problems resulting from homophobic straight men and masculinity rather than problems we experience due to our masculine gender.

    Feminist messages to the gay community have been loud and clear. Unless we culturally castrate ourselves, gay men aren't worthy of rights.

    I've got a fucktonne more things to say, but have taken so long doing this that I think I'm gonna leave it for another time. I'm tired as hell right now and am worried that's starting to show by the quality of my writing and I'm not being as coherent as I'd like, but I also don't want to wait until tomorrow to fix stuff up and post it. I've been so looking forward to writing in this forum for such a long time and am too eager to contribute to have to wait another day.

    Peace out,
    Cam

  2. #2
    Hah, a new voice and Im the first to reply.
    Winner = Me!

    welcome.

    Cam, so many politics ...ffs.

    what Im reading though is about the the balls....and who owns them.

    are they yours ... or theirs?
    "Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one" - Charles Mackay

    And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee. - Donne

    "What we are seeing in this headless misandry is a grand display of the Tyranny of the Underdog: 'I am a wretchedly longstanding victim; therefore I own no burden of adult accountability, nor need to honor any restraint against my words and actions. In fact, all efforts to restrain me are only further proof of my oppressed condition.'
    "It is the most perfect trump-card against accountable living ever devised." - Gladden Schrock

    "What remains for most men in modern life is a world of expectation without reward, burden without honor and service without self" - Paul Elam

  3. #3
    Senior Member malcolm's Avatar
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    Welcome to the AVFM forums Cam, thanks for the intro, that was good reading.
    I've often wondered why gay men tuck their penises between their legs and bow down to feminist ideology.
    “No one is free who has not obtained the empire of himself. No man is free who cannot command himself.”
    ― Pythagoras

  4. #4
    Senior Member Deidre's Avatar
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    Welcome to the forums, cam

  5. #5
    heya cam welcome to the boards.

    get discord app. we've had very regular chats on there. ill update the thread so you can see it shortly.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheNarrator View Post
    Everywhere I travel, tiny life. Single-serving sugar, single-serving cream, single pat of butter. The microwave Cordon Bleu hobby kit. Shampoo-conditioner combos, sample-packaged mouthwash, tiny bars of soap. The people I meet on each flight? They're single-serving friends.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Manalysis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cam_Schwz View Post
    Hey, Everyone
    Hi there, and welcome.

    After watching the Red Pill Documentary, my head has been spinning. It’s like I’ve been lead blindfolded down a long, twisted path and have finally taken it off and am now wondering where the fuck I am.
    Sounds like some horror movie scene ... suddenly you realize the rest of the town are alien body snatchers ...

    I worry that they’ll hear me watching Youtube videos about MRA’s and make negative assumptions about me.
    Make up a cover story, like you're part of an undercover sting to combat misogynistic online hate ... so you have to read AVfM a lot ...

    It might have seemed obvious to all of you from the get-go that Feminist Frequency was bullshit, but it isn't so simple for some people to see that ......You also might be wondering what else other than getting laid could a male feminist possibly get out of being so attached to this ideology. ..... There's obviously more reasons than just that why male feminists exist.


    I'm not sure it's all that obvious. Ideologies, like most other lies, are spun around a kernel of truth or a common experiences or observations.
    I think that first and obviously it offers an explanation, where nobody else offers that. The only show in town.
    Also, it has of course draped itself in the mantle of righteousness, it appeals to people's desire for a noble quest.
    And it points out people you can be noble for hating
    As you state above:

    I would routinely get into arguments in Youtube and Facebook comments with guys online defending Feminism that would sometimes last for days (some of which I’m still getting notifications for). I would call men ‘Whiners, Losers, Ugly, Capitalist Pigs, White-Supremacists, Nazis, Individualists, Monsters, Scary, Rape-apologists, Misogynists, Racists, Homophobes, Chauvinists’ etc. etc. etc. It leaked from my online life into my personal life and effected my interactions with friends and family, too, who I would ‘call-out’ for saying anything that was potentially ‘misogynistic’.
    This - a vent for frustrations - is also a large part of the package that ideology offers.
    It's what I see, looking at these clips of marches and demos, people toppling garbage cans and feeling "I am a daring rebel!", in their own wimpy way.

    I've got a fucktonne more things to say,
    Bound to be interesting to watch, methinks.

    but have taken so long doing this that I think I'm gonna leave it for another time. I'm tired as hell right now
    Take care of yourself, now. Husband your strength, and do things that build it.

    and am worried that's starting to show by the quality of my writing and I'm not being as coherent as I'd like
    Don't worry

    but I also don't want to wait until tomorrow to fix stuff up and post it.
    I've been so looking forward to writing in this forum for such a long time and am too eager to contribute to have to wait another day.
    Glad you did. I hope this here place can be a little breathing-hole where you can come and de-stress

    M

  7. #7
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    Thank you for the responses. I'll respond to the comments and insert some remarks and reflections.

    welcome.

    Cam, so many politics ...ffs.
    Thanks for the welcome, Matrix.

    Yeah, I know. I never used to be so political, but if this is your crowd and you've had to deal with the repercussions of being shut down for saying the wrong thing all the time and your language is controlled, this sort of thing just happens to you and before you know it buzz words are flying out of your mouth without recognising how stupid and cliché you're sounding. Something I've figured out is that vulnerable people seek out and are sought after by institutions that claim to make sense of their problems, and this can be a good thing just as easily as it can be a bad thing.

    I've never been in the front lines of these activist scenes, merely supported and/or observed from afar. I was never particularly convenient for them, or completely comfortable with everything that was being said. This was mostly around the topic of Islam. I am very fond of Ex-Muslim Atheist voices in Europe who speak out against religious violence, and this didn't gel well with them.

    You'd think that people obsessed with identity politics might think that representing vulnerable minorities was a number one priority. Ex-Muslim atheists are a minority within a minority who face threats both of racist violence from Nationalists and religious violence from Islamists. But no, say anything in reference to the Ex-Muslim Atheists and one of three things happens: 1. you are misinterpreted as being racist 2. you are misinterpreted as sympathising with Islamic extremism 3. you are ignored.

    what Im reading though is about the the balls....and who owns them.

    are they yours ... or theirs?
    In response to your comment about my balls. Pretty sure they're good. If they managed to survive the feminist wringer they've gotta be pretty god-damned sturdy.

    A Side Note - Interested in these topics of discussion and wondering if anyone has any input or would be able to direct me to a place within the forum to discuss it

    In the vein of the above-mentioned topic, radicalisation is something that rather interests me. After reading and watching stuff by Warren Farrell, I'm more of the opinion that a lot of societal problems stem from a lack of parenting from Fathers, hence making young people vulnerable and susceptible to radicalisation.

    However, I'm skeptical of this to the extent that a behavioural psychologist I follow called Steven Pinker has put forth a lot of arguments that a lot of studies on the best way to raise children don't control for genetic heritability and are mostly garbage.

    This is relevant to topics of domestic violence and what I've noticed in Erin Pizzey's comments - Erin Pizzey frequently says that she noticed that people who had experienced violence in their homes as children would frequently go on to be in abusive relationships themselves. "Battered children grow up to batter," she says.

    Since children and parents share genes, how do we know whether such people are predisposed to domestic violence as a learnt characteristic from childhood rather than predisposed as an inherent characteristic of genetics?

    To clarify, I don't mean to say that some people are just beyond help nor do I mean that domestic violence is inevitable. To bend back to Pinker's work, he has very convincingly detailed the various ways in which we have managed to become less violent as a species over time. In reference to his work for a book he wrote called 'The Blank Slate,' he says the point of recognising genetic differences doesn't mean that any person/s should be afforded any fewer rights -

    "All men are created equal, not all men are created clones" - [Steven Pinker Quoting Thomas Jefferson's Immortal Declaration, only after first clarifying the historical omission of women in the phrase and how he would write it differently]

    Are there any studies that link domestic violence in the home as a cause of domestic violence into adulthood that control for genetic variability?

    Manalysis

    Thanks for the welcome and the kind words.

    I'm concerned my anxieties have come across as exaggerated by your response. I'm not the only one who has felt on edge and afraid living in the unit I am with the people who are in it. Two people before me left after long arguments with the Feminist transgendered girl who lives here. Others in the surrounding units have also had enduring problems with her.

    Since this Transgendered girl was blaming everything on Transphobia, I was compelled to believe her. Then I found out she'd been having problems with some of the other girls in here. She told me that the conservative Feminists (TERFs, they're called) had problems with her joining in the women's circle after transitioning (I later found out that these claims were dubious). Rather than coming to the conclusion that Feminism is bullshit, she purported that she was suffering 'Trans-misogyny' - some new fear the kids and professors in Social Sciences have dreamt up.

    After I moved in and presented myself as someone has had a long experience of living with and working amongst Transgendered women and had no problem with seeing her as a woman and saying 'her', the issue transformed into being problems of outright misogyny, instead. Everything I said or did was open to interpretation as oppressive, misogynistic behaviour.

    When I moved in, I was warned that cisgendered men were 'putting excessive levels of emotional labour' on the transgendered people within the student Co-op. I was told that 'emotional labour is gendered and disproportionately impacts women and women-identifying people'.

    As a Feminist myself, I started to wonder if I was in fact this misogynistic, transphobic, privileged cisgendered asshole.

    I believe their skepticism of me stemmed a lot from the qualms I had with using 'they,' 'them,' theirs' pronouns for singular people who identify as neither male nor female.

    Gender Neutral Pronouns in English

    I've just come from spending a year and half in Germany, where none of these pronouns or concepts of Genderlessness exist. I've come back and forth between Berlin and Sydney and noticed there are traits in the languages that make it inherently unpopular in German. Yet in Berlin, I met all sorts of people of androgynous gender expression who were perfectly comfortable with either 'him' or 'her' and looked at me as crazy when I asked them what their preferred pronoun was and whether they would like to be referred to as 'they'.

    Referring to someone as 'They' in the German language is formal language. You use it when referring to people who are superior to you e.g. for a teacher, a banker, a police officer. No one in Berlin would consider this a superior way to consider their gender.

    I've even heard that it's considered normal in German to refer to someone of androgynous gender using 'es' or 'it'. Calling people 'it' is considered dehumanising in English, but apparently not in German. I'm yet to find scholarly clarification of this, but this idea makes objective sense in the case of the German language. Every object has a gendered pronoun - either masculine, feminine or neutral - in the German language. Any object around you is either masculine, feminine, or neutral, which would have the effect of diminishing the significance of gender neutrality as a trait restricted to non-human objects. This renders the use of 'it' in the German language no less dehumanising than saying 'him/her', since both gendered and genderless pronouns refer to objects, unlike in English.

    I don't know if anyone here is skeptical of transgenderism on the whole. I have particular doubts myself as to lots of the things suggested by the Trans rights lobby, but am on the whole nonplussed about whether someone considers themselves male or female. It's this gender neutrality and enforcement of gender neutral pronouns that I have huge problems with.

    From everything that I can see, these gender neutral pronouns are so divisive and exclusionary that I just can't agree that they're worth it. They put young, vulnerable people who are questioning their sexuality and identity - in a world that sends us confusing messages about who we are and what we are worth - and politicises them with ideas that anyone who doesn't bend the rules of the English language hates them and is against them for not seeing things the way they do.

    Misandry exists?

    Meeting a transgendered guy (meaning female to male) was the spanner in the works for all of my thinking around this. From my understanding, he is a mens rights activist.

    This blew my mind. I had spent so long feeling like a monster for being cisgendered and male and both potentially misogynistic and trans-misogynistic that I never thought to flip things around... According to the narrative I'd been hearing, if trans-misogyny exists because of discrimination against transgendered people, then doesn't it follow that trans-misandry also exists? Hang on... Does misandry exist?

    If the trans girl was talking about all sorts of problems specific to her transition and her difficulties fitting in with women, then certainly transgendered men had problems fitting in with men. Since the Trans girl defined this problem as Trans-misogyny, wouldn't the corresponding problem be Trans-misandry?

    I started talking more with the transgendered guy and getting an understanding of him and his problems. I could see he went through the same sorts of issues as I did. I noticed he placed importance in being physically and emotionally strong, and admired my efforts and routines for physical fitness.

    At a party we went to he became emotional and was embarrassed because his girlfriend who had recently dumped him was there and was hooking up with someone else. A friend of mine took him aside to talk and tried the same tactics that'd been used again and again to try and cheer me up but which ultimately made me just feel worse.

    I noticed that this wasn't helping, and stepped in to give some of my own advice. I told him life was shit. His situation is shit. I laid out his options and said that he could leave the party if he wanted to, or that he could stay, take some more drinks to forget about the problem which would help for the time being but not make anything better in the long run.

    It isn't often that I take charge of situations like that and was shocked to see it pay off. He smiled, got up and thanked me again and again and again for my advice.

    Having grown up in a very female dominated household with a single mother and two older sister by six and seven years, this ran contrary to everything I'd learnt about how to encourage people who were going through problems. It prompted me to examine that interaction more closely -

    My friend was talking to him using a soft, ringing tone much like a mother talks to her child. Being surrounded by women both in my present circumstance and throughout my life, this was the same way that people had been talking to me after I brought up my insecurities and which I found unhelpful. I needed to be reassured that my insecurities were normal and expected so that I could cope with my difficulties rather than being treated like an infant and made to feel insignificant and small.

    Having already become conscious of anything and everything I could possibly be doing that was misogynistic and treading on eggshells to avoid it, I figured out that men's criticism of women's high pitched voices was also potentially misogynistic. Try mocking a woman by repeating a comment she made in a high pitched voice and see what kind of a reaction you'll get from Feminists.

    While I was a Feminist, I understood any mocking of women's high pitched voices to be inherently oppressive to women. Losing Feminism I'm now now under the impression that men are predisposed to interpret high pitched voices negatively when they are used to try and relate to them for the simple reason that they don't sound like that themselves. Having someone speak to you who claims to understands the problems you are going through with an outsiders voice doesn't make sense.
    Last edited by Cam_Schwz; 06-25-2017 at 08:30 PM. Reason: Edited to clarify transgendered guy's experience at party

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