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Thread: Charlottesville

  1. #411
    Also, you keep using words in phrases to convey meanings... and when your meanings are decoded, you back away from them.

    Why is that?
    "Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one" - Charles Mackay

    And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee. - Donne

    "What we are seeing in this headless misandry is a grand display of the Tyranny of the Underdog: 'I am a wretchedly longstanding victim; therefore I own no burden of adult accountability, nor need to honor any restraint against my words and actions. In fact, all efforts to restrain me are only further proof of my oppressed condition.'
    "It is the most perfect trump-card against accountable living ever devised." - Gladden Schrock

    "What remains for most men in modern life is a world of expectation without reward, burden without honor and service without self" - Paul Elam

  2. #412
    So far I haven't seen anything from you that indicates that you are not informed and educated.
    Ah OK...

    Sometimes I have found people that call me those things because I have not read their book, or I did not understood their book they way they did... For intellectual circles, sometimes is about reading the right books, otherwise you are not part of the intellectual circle... the part I highlight there is that I am not part of the circle... the part that they highlight there is that I am not intellectual...

    I thought you was coming at me with some argument on those lines, when you pointed out that I am uninformed...

    Hard to tell without inowing you, and the situation you want to apply your experience to.
    So ... Have you fought many Nazi movements?
    I used to... basically what I do here... take their panfletos, or what no... tear them apart, make them look silly... what no... then those things get published around in the internet... I infiltrated them groups... get membership and the so, to pick up their list of members, make copy of their phone books... stuff like that... though I have never punch a nazi in my life.

    In South America the neo-nazism is way different than what it is in North America... Down there it is something common in upper social classes, people well educated and well off, economically... they have a branch of neonazism "Hitlerismo Esoterico", they talk deep philosophy, they travel the world, and are well connected around the world... This is a trend with the facism in South America... for instance there is the writings of Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira, Miguel Serrano, Luis Felipe Moyano... and the so...

    In North America, you don't really find this... the facists are medium class, or plain lower class, with not higher education... you can't really find someone you can call a "scholar" amongst them... They don't organize literature clubs, they organise gangs, instead.

    You will not find a neo-nazi that talks about the works of Richard Wagner, Wolfram von Eschenbach, Hermann Hesse, Jung... This is just the beginning of the list of names you have to read, just to be able to have a debate with a South American neo-nazi...

    Then of course there is all the list of Scholars on the "other side of the fence"... Robert Ambelain, Fernando Gonzalez, Simon Rodriguez... another long list... Plus the list of all the Rabbis, jewish historians and scholars and what not... that is a whole different body of literature. And they all interact with each other... Miguel Serrano dedicates 30 pages of his book "El Cordon Dorado" (book is around 1200 pages) to explain why Robert Ambelain is intellectually misguided, Robert Ambelain answer back with a 450 pages book "Los Arcanos Negros de Hitler" where he explains from a gnostic, esoteric, point of view why Hitler is not really the Avatar... and why Esoteric Hitlerism is intellectually misguided...

    Look at history, and you will see that the first move of _every_ totalitarian movement, from the RCC to North Korea, _always_ is to eliminate free debate.
    AFAICS I can see, that is the mistake.
    Germany's restrictions on "reviving Nazi material" pertains only that: no printing of "Mein Kampf", no Nazi flags and symbols, no Heil Hitler salutes, no Holocaust denial.
    Very specific and limited, and with a clear purpose based on historical precedent. That's the way it should be, IMO, wrt. freedom of speech.
    Freedom of association and assembly is something else, although it is the same type of value. This is where I would put on the brakes.
    Well the problem is that... Germans have a record of following that kind of speech... which in reality is the danger of allowing it, on the first place... If you allow the speech, you are pretty much risking that people will believe it, and before you notice, it gets big enough, the government will not be able to do anything about it...

    So in order to allow hate speech you have to be sure people will... as other member of the forum suggest... laugh at them... not join them... But the idea that if it gest big and strong we will be able to control it and manage it and take it back down is... in my opinion... dangerously naive.

    Another very interesting character. Why do such people tend to get killed off? Really sad.
    I just had to look up his "Heriberto de la Calle" character on youtube, although the only Spanish I know is "Olé!" and "Dos cervezas, por favor".
    Just then I'd really have like to understand more. Am I right to think that "de la Calle" can mean "in/on/of/from the street", like in "the man in the street"?
    That is correct... though it is also a surname...

    The character would have polish the shoes of high profile politicians, while asking them hard questions... The makeup was kind of controversial back on that time, as people wondered how he archived the look of not teeth... the history is that few years before, some cops kicked off his teeth. So he used them fake since then, but for this character he removed the fake teeth.

  3. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by MatrixTransform View Post
    really?
    so lemme get this straight... you wanna fit everybody up as racist, capitalist, bigots ... and expect me yet to laugh about it with you?

    you best get better at jokes mate.
    I am a capitalist.... what is wrong with that?

  4. #414
    Administrator Grumpy Old Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simpleman View Post
    Talking out of my personal experiences... I will say neo-nazis are not that much interested in dialogue...



    I still don't understand how this group is even possible... Perhaps the same fears to become a monster are the framework that allow this kind of groups to exist and get bigger and better... but the dangers of stopping them are so great... we must better endure and let them be... such is the debate I am having in the forums at this moment...



    Here is a good example of no platform:

    "Truth #2. Christopher Cantwell was disinvited from writing anything else for AVFM after I discovered advocacy for politically motivated violence he had penned on his own blog. This was in keeping with AVFM’s anti-violence stance that has been in our founding principles since inception."
    https://www.avoiceformen.com/a-voice...arlottesville/

    So while we are here debating if this should be done or not... it have being done already in this same house...

    And so there is all the moral questions that can come out of this... the policy claims that it have an anti-violence stance, however disinviting someone sounds like a very violent thing to do... how do we know he will not do it again? targeting innocents this time? how do we know that next time he will not just disinvite someone but mob lynch him? and if not him then someone else that can see the power and hijack it and then use it to oppress everybody on this forums?

    I am there mocking the arguments that are criticizing the point I made... of course... and by the way, I was worried that this place could swing to the far right .. but knowing that people that go to far can be disinvited makes a world of difference... way less worried now.


    uh... of what?
    Frankly, I have no clue what you are on about. You conflate people who rally with others who use violence as a tactic(Black Block). Conflate, someone advocating violence and being removed from this web site with the discussion of free speech. You also conflate the actions of a private site with those of the government.
    ethikē aretē--phronesis--eudaimonia
    virtue of character--practical/ethical wisdom--human flourishing

    It is not a battle to win but an attitude to share.
    AVFM Mission Statement

  5. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by simpleman View Post
    I am a capitalist.... what is wrong with that?
    yeah ok ... back outta that too... now, your a capitalist?

    seems to me that you adopt whatever politic that suits yr destabilizing agenda of the day.
    "Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one" - Charles Mackay

    And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee. - Donne

    "What we are seeing in this headless misandry is a grand display of the Tyranny of the Underdog: 'I am a wretchedly longstanding victim; therefore I own no burden of adult accountability, nor need to honor any restraint against my words and actions. In fact, all efforts to restrain me are only further proof of my oppressed condition.'
    "It is the most perfect trump-card against accountable living ever devised." - Gladden Schrock

    "What remains for most men in modern life is a world of expectation without reward, burden without honor and service without self" - Paul Elam

  6. #416
    I guess the socialists are just on the opposite side against the capitalistic system that kinda exploits the economically weak
    "Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one" - Charles Mackay

    And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee. - Donne

    "What we are seeing in this headless misandry is a grand display of the Tyranny of the Underdog: 'I am a wretchedly longstanding victim; therefore I own no burden of adult accountability, nor need to honor any restraint against my words and actions. In fact, all efforts to restrain me are only further proof of my oppressed condition.'
    "It is the most perfect trump-card against accountable living ever devised." - Gladden Schrock

    "What remains for most men in modern life is a world of expectation without reward, burden without honor and service without self" - Paul Elam

  7. #417
    Senior Member Manalysis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simpleman View Post
    Sometimes I have found people that call me those things because I have not read their book
    That might perhaps be relevant if one were disussing their book, or a debate where that book was significant.
    But that's not what we are doing, is it?

    or I did not understood their book they way they did... For intellectual circles, sometimes is about reading the right books, otherwise you are not part of the intellectual circle... the part I highlight there is that I am not part of the circle... the part that they highlight there is that I am not intellectual...

    But in here, we're all each of us members of Circles of One, and there's no way one could belong to any other.
    And there is little 'intellectualism' à la academic scholarship; which is not to say that there isn't a lot of smart.

    I thought you was coming at me with some argument on those lines, when you pointed out that I am uninformed...
    Thank you for raising this point.
    Yes, I saw that myself, and did debate with myself if I should go in and change that; a most unfortunate choice of words. Sorry about that.
    I meant to convey that a basic perspective may be limited in its content to things that are obvious, where the obvious is not the whole story;
    and portay something as structurally simple, where a more detailed model would do more justice in modelling what the model is meant to show, i.e. reality.
    This holds true at least in the analysis phase; ideally this should result in steps to action that are basic in the sense of both being elegantly simple and easy to perform.
    I did not mean to say anything about you, and certainly not to say anything bad.

    I used to... basically what I do here... take their panfletos, or what no... tear them apart, make them look silly... what no... then those things get published around in the internet... I infiltrated them groups... get membership and the so, to pick up their list of members, make copy of their phone books... stuff like that... though I have never punch a nazi in my life.
    I must say - score two for you, then.

    In South America the neo-nazism is way different than what it is in North America... Down there it is something common in upper social classes, people well educated and well off, economically... they have a branch of neonazism "Hitlerismo Esoterico", they talk deep philosophy, they travel the world, and are well connected around the world... This is a trend with the facism in South America... for instance there is the writings of Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira, Miguel Serrano, Luis Felipe Moyano... and the so...
    In North America, you don't really find this... the facists are medium class, or plain lower class, with not higher education... you can't really find someone you can call a "scholar" amongst them... They don't organize literature clubs, they organise gangs, instead.
    You will not find a neo-nazi that talks about the works of Richard Wagner, Wolfram von Eschenbach, Hermann Hesse, Jung... This is just the beginning of the list of names you have to read, just to be able to have a debate with a South American neo-nazi...
    Interesting. It is as if some pockets of the 1920ies have survived more or less untouched by WWII ...
    There was some "intellectual nazism" in Germany, Italy (like Julius Evola) and the UK (like S. H. Chamberlain) (and probably in France) around these days, often overlapping with e.g. "Aryanism", "Theosophy" and other racism based 'pre-New Age' New Age drivel. But I guess the War showed it up for what it was, in the eyes of most people; with perhaps only Ernst Jünger surviving as a respectable author in Germany, leaving the alt- and neo-right out in the cold until it reinvented itself as populist democratic movements.

    Then of course there is all the list of Scholars on the "other side of the fence"... Robert Ambelain, Fernando Gonzalez, Simon Rodriguez... another long list... Plus the list of all the Rabbis, jewish historians and scholars and what not... that is a whole different body of literature. And they all interact with each other... Miguel Serrano dedicates 30 pages of his book "El Cordon Dorado" (book is around 1200 pages) to explain why Robert Ambelain is intellectually misguided, Robert Ambelain answer back with a 450 pages book "Los Arcanos Negros de Hitler" where he explains from a gnostic, esoteric, point of view why Hitler is not really the Avatar... and why Esoteric Hitlerism is intellectually misguided...
    There ... a nice portrait of how "importance" can be something manufactured ... something going on just because it is going on.

    Well the problem is that... Germans have a record of following that kind of speech...
    So, what do you think of the USA wrt. following that kind of speech?
    My impression is that they usually don't; OTOH the population is easy to win for a war once the flames of patriotism are fanned.
    I don't know if that is the same thing.

    which in reality is the danger of allowing it, on the first place... If you allow the speech, you are pretty much risking that people will believe it, and before you notice, it gets big enough, the government will not be able to do anything about it...
    Yes; but that risk has to be assessed realistically, or else the countermeasures ... you know, etc. etc.
    I think you could roast the entire alt.right over a slow fire without any of them coming up with the name of a 12th century German troubadour as their intellectual inspiration. There is no upper class cultural legitimacy for nazism in the US, Henry Ford notwithstanding. The Fords of today just want to be left alone to feed on the carcass of American industry to enrich themselves, and are happy not to be noticed. And their arguments are about "freedom", which implies that that is a value that ranks high in the minds of those they want to deceive.

    So in order to allow hate speech you have to be sure people will... as other member of the forum suggest... laugh at them... not join them... But the idea that if it gest big and strong we will be able to control it and manage it and take it back down is... in my opinion... dangerously naive.
    The other worry here is that if you put barriers in place, and that if these get big and strong, the ability to control them and manage them and take them back down is dangeroulsy naïve; i.e. "government skepticism".

    That is correct... though it is also a surname...
    Thx.

    The character would have polish the shoes of high profile politicians, while asking them hard questions...
    I assumed as much. And then they would send up the interviewed person on TV ... must have been a high risk sport.

    The makeup was kind of controversial back on that time, as people wondered how he archived the look of not teeth...
    the history is that few years before, some cops kicked off his teeth. So he used them fake since then, but for this character he removed the fake teeth.
    Your remarks about his humour are making more and more sense ...

    But again, these conditions differ considerably from the US, don't you think?

    M

  8. #418
    Senior Member Manalysis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_e View Post
    The fallacy in her thinking... That only works for as long as both players agree to be on the same team.
    Black, right?

    M

  9. #419
    Senior Member voidspawn's Avatar
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    Well the problem is that... Germans have a record of following that kind of speech... which in reality is the danger of allowing it, on the first place... If you allow the speech, you are pretty much risking that people will believe it (1), and before you notice, it gets big enough, the government will not be able to do anything about it(2)...

    So in order to allow hate speech you have to be sure people will... as other member of the forum suggest... laugh at them... not join them... But the idea that if it gest big and strong we will be able to control it and manage it and take it back down (3) is... in my opinion... dangerously naive.
    (1) An argument of freedom is dangerous because people might abuse it.

    (2) A fallacy that a special person exists that invariably knows good and bad apart, that can judge the minds and intent of others, the reactions of everyone else and the future. Connects to (1) By this it has to be a special person who can decide, because if the people are allowed to they might be believe it and then it will be too late.

    (3) Typical argument of the censor made even when there is no evidence of a majority people believing it or even listening to it. If you take the time to look you can always find which groups are going to be vulnerable and address their social problems if you want less people vulnerable to believing nonsense. Even a well meaning censorious authority is ultimately covering up it's own failures.
    "...especially when it comes to communication, it can be observed, if it is not a negotiation it's a war."
    Quote Originally Posted by menrppl2 View Post
    Can't live with em, life is great without them.

  10. #420
    Senior Member Manalysis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voidspawn View Post
    (1) An argument of freedom is dangerous because people might abuse it.
    That's too simple.
    Again, remember the Weimar Republic. Freedom was dangerous for it, because people _did_ abuse freedom to argue for abolishing it; and did.
    It's not like 'everything will be ok as long as there is freedom'.

    M

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