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Thread: Antifa Mobs Have Taken Over Berkeley, Are Beating Trump Supporters, Assaulting Journa

  1. #81
    Senior Member Manalysis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
    Yes and no. Interest based groups where the members have a choice to join, or exit if it becomes dysfunctional.
    Yes.
    Here, as often, we have several exchanges on one topic, although I suspect we agree ... but get snagged in language and semantics.
    I think groups where members have a chance to join or exit at will is pretty much the definition of "interest based".
    Any "involuntary" groups would have to be those you get included in because of traits you can't change according to interest, like e.g. shoe size., i.e "natural" or "inborn" traits.

    I don't know, are you advocating what others should do?
    Absolutely. As a person, I advocate that others should, in general, do good; as a MRA hanger-on I advocate that men should do some things and women should do some things; as a forum member I advocate that people should stick to facts and truth, not bias and slogans.

    Is it possible you may be wrong?
    It would be arrogant to not admit at least the theoretical possibility.

    My comment was made not at you but those who rationalize what turns out to be tyranny.
    OK. I was fooled by the word "you", then, I guess.
    I haven't seen anyone in this forum ever rationalizing tyranny. The most extreme left outliers here, SST and me, are solidly democrat, leaning towards the social democracy strain in economy, which by most indices makes for a society superior in many respects.

    Sometimes I feel you over intellectualize the discussion and it was in response to that Feeling.
    While "over-" anything indicates overshooting the mark and therefore can't be good, that estimate is usually subjective.
    If "intellectualizing" is a code word for "argueing with facts, having read the book" then I hope I am guilty.
    Many posters here would benefit from a touch more of intellectualization.

    This is the Tyranny. I can think of dozens of failed countries who felt they knew the best possible outcomes for the maximum number while sacrificing the rights of the individual.
    It is necessary to differentiate between what people say, and what they do.
    Anyone can claim to be The Second Coming; the measure is in the number of lepers healed.
    Some people not only advocate, but also_practice_ trying for the best possible outcome for the maximum number, including safeguarding the rights of the individual.
    Some do not.

    Is it possible protecting the rights and liberties of the individual protects the same for the group?
    I can't decide what you are saying here.
    But IMO the rights of the individual and the rights of the group are not in conflict, when the aim of the groups is to elevate the individual.
    The the group is individuals' tool for realizing their interests.

    And I think the consensus has been that the US has been very successful integrating immigrants.
    Of course; the USA is a nation of immigrants, with, after a modicum of ethnic cleansing, no original population.
    That said, countless thousands also failed and perished there. And integrating immigrants wasn't always smooth.
    You know why and when they established the Secret Service, Presidential detail?

    I think you did not understand...I'm pointing out this exact failure. The culture remained and evolved.
    An extremely novel perspective
    Most people see revolutions as incisive turning points.

    Yes it was something you wrote. I quoted it.
    Yes, but you quoted my entire response to dubs in one block. Impossible to tell what the "this" specifically referred to.

    Why is Norway not part of the EU?
    Tl;dr: because we want to keep our oil money for ourselves.

    But also because we the people said no in two referendums.

    People said no for a variety of reasons:
    - We've been in unions of sorts before, without any pleasant memories.
    - We'd much to lose: Energy (hydro/oil), vast fisheries, generous welfare, local tax law, local agrarian industry, currency, defense, etc. etc.
    - We'd nothing to gain. EU membership would have had us pay for Greek deficits.

    That said, we are thoroughly integrated into EU economics through the EFTA and EEA agreements; more so than many EU countries.
    In that sense, we are in practice "members" - but still with much more local democracy and self-determination that EU states.

    The only pro-EU argument is the opportunity to be in on EU decisions; but we'd have 11 of 720 delegates, so we'd just end up a German puppet state.

    Googling "Why is Norway not part of the EU?" gives you lots of hits, btw, from a variety of sources, many foreign (esp. UK, around the Brexit).

    M

  2. #82
    Senior Member mr_e's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
    Now this is what I'm looking for.

    The ultimate debate on IQ revolves around Heritability vs culture/environment. A very touchy subject over its history and one, given the antics of Hitler's rein, and Racists who would choose to abuse this research is not going to be easily resolved.

    I'll let dubs speak for himself in response to this. But my take is not inferiority of blacks vs whites but innate differences in how they view things based on the listed factors he presented, one of which is the landmine of IQ distributions which you focussed on.

    Before anyone presses with this conversation I would like you/them or anyone interested to view a recent Jordan Peterson and Bret Weinstein discussion which talks to this topic as well as many others including Charlottesville and Antifa. If anything they illuminate the challenges/discussion very well and give a good example of how to discuss these types of topics. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6G59zsjM2UI

    Note: I'm also going to let you off the hook a bit and suggest that rather than make a broad statement and throw in the laundry list which simply comes across as an eye poking, you address these concerns as they come up.

    I would like to offer Karen Straughan's rebuttal video to Chris Cantwell (whom she interviewed on the evening prior to his being arrested- both videos are interesting, but I'll leave it to the reader to dredge up the one with Cantwell..) Karen's rebuttal is very interesting and she goes on for some length about the ideas of "heritability" and how/whether they make any difference (or not) in actual practice. The whole discussion is very interesting (IMO), and while I didn't particularly like or agree with Cantwell's views in the original interview, I thought it was pretty interesting too-- though I very much agree with much/most of Karen's rebuttal arguments.

    (If someone else has already posted either of these... well, you can enjoy them again! ;-)


    My Thoughts Re: Chris Cantwell

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  3. #83
    Senior Member mr_e's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
    A couple of things. SM's argument about the KKK is a distraction to the OP he posted and the discussion he started. Everyone in the US is familiar with these groups and what they do or do not do over time or at these rallies. SM's assertion revolved around culpability and Trumps calling both sides out. Some would like us to dismiss one bad side(at Charlottesville) based on the other's abhorrent history. This is an ideological hook giving the notion that Antifa was righteous and anyone who calls both sides out supports the KKK. Complete and utter BS which the MSM perpetuated until they became the target and Antifa spoiled the win by showing their ass at berkeley the next week. Those on this forum who held both side accountable were in essence the canary in the coalmine for what followed.

    I emphatically agree. And I don't think it's possible to stress your particular point strongly enough. In fact, it revealed their entire game and mindset-- and tacit collusion and culpability-- all in one nice, neatly-wrapped package topped with a bow-- not that they would admit it of course. This revelation is repeatedly verified and validated by the sheer vapidity and transparent nature of their carping and comments, such as this one from Chelsea Clinton, where she continued the venerable old Leftist tradition of "rally the troops" to "blame and shame" whatever it is that they cannot control or manipulate, into submission or oblivion-- in this case, Donald Trump:

    Chelsea Clinton Freaks out Over Trump's Harvey Comments — Twitter Promptly Delivers Smackdown
    https://ijr.com/the-declaration/2017...smackdown/amp/

    I have only included one such incident by way of example, but the Internet is awash with literally millions more just like it. Same shit, different day. Over and over and over ad naseum.

    Whether Feminism arises out of this mindset or rather this mindset arises out of Feminism-- I don't really care. I just know that the two are inexorably-linked and go inevitably hand-in-hand wherever Leftism or Feminism is sold. Personally, I've had my fill of it. I am sick and tired of this creeping narcissism taking over our society like some toxic human algae bloom. This is indeed the mindset and madness that we of the MHRM are fated to fight. We have a number of "friends" and "natural allies" who have not really woken up yet to the situation and the dangers, who would quickly "condemn" us (perhaps not the best word) for being "MRA's" without realizing that they are busy stewing in the same pot.

    I watched another extremely good HoneyBadgerRadio video last night-- an interview with Bob Lewis, the author of the book "The Feminist Lie: It Was Never About Equality"-- which unfortunately is only available to Patreon subscribers (an excellent reason for you to break open your wallets and support the HoneyBadgers, IMO). If you are already a subscriber I very much recommend listening to the interview, it was very good. Even better, buy the book-- support a MHRM author-- it's very good. I have it, I've read it, and I can personally testify to it being packed cover-to-cover full of jaw-dropping information related to and regarding the lies, and the social repercussions of those lies, which have been foisted upon society by Feminists. And particularly how they are designed (from the git-go) to target men, disempower men, and disenfranchise men as citizens of the United States (and of course elsewhere wherever they've been employed). I have talked at length in other posts how men wage war full-force against a well-understood and obvious enemy. Women (Feminists), on the other hand, fight "micro battles" to gain "tiny wins". At the end of the day, men make "large wins", albeit often at great expense, whereas Feminists make lots of "little wins" that add up to quite a bit of ground when viewed collectively. It is often difficult to spot these battles taking place as they can often be obscured or lost in the nuance of various policy positions. But a little bit here and a little bit there-- they add up.

    One of the issues brought up by Bob Lewis in his interview-- which is also a point which we have noted here before-- is that the "gains" of the MHRM have in many instances been ceremonial at best due to the fact that nobody is doing anything to *REPEAL* the anti-male laws and policies which are already in-place at every level from private organizations, businesses, work-places, to schools, public interactions, allocated resources (particularly publicly-funded resources), to laws and sentencing-- to even the nature of the court / legal system itself-- which have been systematically "reformed" and put into place to "stick it to the man"-- literally-- as was their original objective. Always has been, still is, and always will be-- by hateful, sexist Feminists.

    The MHRM exists to discuss the various ways to "Bell the Cat". Meanwhile the cat continues to pussyfoot around with impunity eating whatever little mousie happens to appeal to her whims (or otherwise gets in her way) at any particular moment. And of course the point of ultimate irony-- what the Feminists accuse Men and "The Patriarchy" of being and doing-- that is what they themselves are busy constructing, putting into place, and doing-- so they can become that which they claim to abhor.

    But then... Feminism was never about equality.

    Not ever.
    FEMINISM is a HATE GROUP - Feminists are HATEFUL PEOPLE
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  4. #84
    Senior Member mr_e's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simpleman View Post
    I also think that the victims of the car attack did not deserve the "retaliation", I have not seeing a picture of the dead woman with a flame torch... I don't know how much directl I can say this... You had peaceful counter protesters, and violent counter protests... I am under the impression that the car hit a group of the peaceful ones... If my impression is correct, then Trump's words, that both people, the one driving the car and the one getting hit by it, are "equally violent" is nothing but an insult on the victims of the attack...
    Right-- but by your own observation there were peaceful protesters ("nazis" and "white supremacists" / et al) and allegedly violent protesters. Interestingly however, in most other situations where ANTIFA (and their like) are absent-- there is no violence. A coincidence? Or a correlation....

    You decide.
    FEMINISM is a HATE GROUP - Feminists are HATEFUL PEOPLE
    It's time to call it out for what it is.



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  5. #85
    Senior Member mr_e's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
    This is a video of Antifa in Hamburg Germany breaking shit. The US has a history of Classical Liberal thought still strong, and has not been obfuscated or tainted with this Leftist Ideology or guilt from two World Wars with two competing totalitarian ideologies in Germany. Even though our media not unlike those in Germany would give a pass and cover and let these rascals foment, the citizens will not put up with much of this.




    There will be a certain level of tolerance in the name of giving folks their say, then it will end with the average people taking on these scoundrels. Trust me, it will not be the so called Nazis, White nationalists or the Alt Right as many Leftists and MSM want us to believe, it will be the citizens. Here is a case in point in ultra Liberal Olympia Washington: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfSP5hHa2GU

    Note: there are some longer videos of the Antifa vs homeless in Olympia on the net. I highly recommend watching it because after the first invention of the police the homeless chase Antifa through town and give them some. Would be humorous if it wasn't so sad.

    There is/was a video by Lauren Southern who was attacked, along with quite a few people who were just standing there minding their own business, by ANTIFA members. Her narrative was quite compelling. I recommend digging up the video if you can. (I'm not in a location where I can listen to them at the moment to put my finger on it). It is completely in keeping and character with all of the other reports about ANTIFA and their modes of operation, which seems to be "bash first and don't bother asking questions later".
    FEMINISM is a HATE GROUP - Feminists are HATEFUL PEOPLE
    It's time to call it out for what it is.



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  6. #86
    Administrator Grumpy Old Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manalysis View Post
    Yes.
    Here, as often, we have several exchanges on one topic, although I suspect we agree ... but get snagged in language and semantics.
    I think groups where members have a chance to join or exit at will is pretty much the definition of "interest based".
    Any "involuntary" groups would have to be those you get included in because of traits you can't change according to interest, like e.g. shoe size., i.e "natural" or "inborn" traits.


    Absolutely. As a person, I advocate that others should, in general, do good; as a MRA hanger-on I advocate that men should do some things and women should do some things; as a forum member I advocate that people should stick to facts and truth, not bias and slogans.


    It would be arrogant to not admit at least the theoretical possibility.


    OK. I was fooled by the word "you", then, I guess.
    I haven't seen anyone in this forum ever rationalizing tyranny. The most extreme left outliers here, SST and me, are solidly democrat, leaning towards the social democracy strain in economy, which by most indices makes for a society superior in many respects.


    While "over-" anything indicates overshooting the mark and therefore can't be good, that estimate is usually subjective.
    If "intellectualizing" is a code word for "argueing with facts, having read the book" then I hope I am guilty.
    Many posters here would benefit from a touch more of intellectualization.


    It is necessary to differentiate between what people say, and what they do.
    Anyone can claim to be The Second Coming; the measure is in the number of lepers healed.
    Some people not only advocate, but also_practice_ trying for the best possible outcome for the maximum number, including safeguarding the rights of the individual.
    Some do not.


    I can't decide what you are saying here.
    But IMO the rights of the individual and the rights of the group are not in conflict, when the aim of the groups is to elevate the individual.
    The the group is individuals' tool for realizing their interests.


    Of course; the USA is a nation of immigrants, with, after a modicum of ethnic cleansing, no original population.
    That said, countless thousands also failed and perished there. And integrating immigrants wasn't always smooth.
    You know why and when they established the Secret Service, Presidential detail?


    An extremely novel perspective
    Most people see revolutions as incisive turning points.


    Yes, but you quoted my entire response to dubs in one block. Impossible to tell what the "this" specifically referred to.


    Tl;dr: because we want to keep our oil money for ourselves.

    But also because we the people said no in two referendums.

    People said no for a variety of reasons:
    - We've been in unions of sorts before, without any pleasant memories.
    - We'd much to lose: Energy (hydro/oil), vast fisheries, generous welfare, local tax law, local agrarian industry, currency, defense, etc. etc.
    - We'd nothing to gain. EU membership would have had us pay for Greek deficits.

    That said, we are thoroughly integrated into EU economics through the EFTA and EEA agreements; more so than many EU countries.
    In that sense, we are in practice "members" - but still with much more local democracy and self-determination that EU states.

    The only pro-EU argument is the opportunity to be in on EU decisions; but we'd have 11 of 720 delegates, so we'd just end up a German puppet state.

    Googling "Why is Norway not part of the EU?" gives you lots of hits, btw, from a variety of sources, many foreign (esp. UK, around the Brexit).

    M
    More circles, so I'm not going to respond to most of this.

    What I will say is your given rational for why Norway is not part of the EU illustrates to a large extent all the things I've been saying and trying to elucidate. Now take some time, wrap your mind around it, and scale that to an individual or state perspective.

    Understand that my state alone has more people than Norway and it's considered relatively small in my country. My point is, we are dealing with a Federal system, not unlike the EU, which presents similar challenges. When in these discussion I think the disconnect is we are talking about federal(EU) over reach and burden, and you are talking at your National Scale(If I'm wrong please correct). Very rarely are US folks talking state level politics and if they do it's very specific. You say you are a Social Democrat, I can make many of the same arguments as to why that might be a tyranny to some, particularly when it is Federalized and/or Globalized.

    I had a very specific reason to ask you the question rather than looking to Google.
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  7. #87
    Administrator Grumpy Old Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_e View Post
    I would like to offer Karen Straughan's rebuttal video to Chris Cantwell (whom she interviewed on the evening prior to his being arrested- both videos are interesting, but I'll leave it to the reader to dredge up the one with Cantwell..) Karen's rebuttal is very interesting and she goes on for some length about the ideas of "heritability" and how/whether they make any difference (or not) in actual practice. The whole discussion is very interesting (IMO), and while I didn't particularly like or agree with Cantwell's views in the original interview, I thought it was pretty interesting too-- though I very much agree with much/most of Karen's rebuttal arguments.

    (If someone else has already posted either of these... well, you can enjoy them again! ;-)


    My Thoughts Re: Chris Cantwell

    Thx for sharing, I missed this one. I think she hits the points I agree with.
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  8. #88
    Senior Member Manalysis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
    Now take some time, wrap your mind around it
    Can't be bothered to make your arguments for you.

    I had a very specific reason to ask you the question rather than looking to Google.
    I thought you might have, so I gave my version.
    The links were merely for corroboration.

    The long and short of my involvement here is not so much about C-ville;
    I just didn't like that the debate deteriorated into a mud slinging match, especially a one-sided one.

    M

  9. #89
    Administrator Grumpy Old Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manalysis View Post
    Can't be bothered to make your arguments for you.


    I thought you might have, so I gave my version.
    The links were merely for corroboration.

    The long and short of my involvement here is not so much about C-ville;
    I just didn't like that the debate deteriorated into a mud slinging match, especially a one-sided one.

    M
    Dude, you slung mud, and you've made it clear how you feel about members of this community. But I'm not sure you even realize it.

    As far as making my argument for me...You did that already. My comment was an appeal for you to take the time and think about it from another perspective.

    You tend to engage from an altitude(ref my comment on "over" intellectualizing). I come from a different altitude, one very much lower, yet very much higher. Again, not expecting you to understand. You've been too highly trained in your malaise, one we see from many intellectuals these days... Evergreen, Berkley, Mizzou to point out a few.

    So come at me again about what I(or others) may or may have not read.
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  10. #90
    Administrator Grumpy Old Man's Avatar
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    Antifa News:
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