Fear of Rejection? No. Fear of Punishment.

[LionKimbro]

I have a theory that the notion that "men fear rejection" is horribly misguided.

I was exploring my fears almost a year ago, and I realized: "Wait! I don't fear rejection. I fear punishment!"

Fear of Rejection:
* The fear that she might say "no," and not be interested in having a sexual relationship with me.

Fear of Punishment:
* The fear that she will express disgust or shaming or laughing towards me.
* The fear that she might tell her friends that I am a "creep," and that the women will start spreading the word amongst themselves.
* The fear that my advance will be felt to be dangerous, or that my interactions with women will be felt as potentially dangerous, because I did not observe some cautionary signal that women are looking for but I don't happen to know.
* The fear that I will show up on the radar of white knights, who will then signal that I am "under watch," warn women of my approach, interrupt future approaches, what have you.
* The fear that I will lose social status, be laughed at, or shamed before the local community.

(Other Fears: )
* The fear that she will make up in her mind that not only is she not interested now, but that she will decide that she will NEVER be interested.

When I inventoried my fears, I realized that by far, the fear of punishment dramatically dwarfs the fear of rejection. Yet, we're always hearing talk about how men "fear rejection," and how it's viewed as almost an insult to women: "You can't handle that she might say no. You feel entitled to a yes, basically." But that's ridiculous.

Imagine that you had telepathic powers, and you could read a woman's mind, to see if she would say "yes" or "no." There would be no punishments issued, because she wouldn't even know that you asked. Would you check to see her interest? I can't speak for you, but for myself, I'd do it in a heartbeat! I'd be constantly scanning most every woman around me, in order to find out, "Are you interested?" (..!) If I were afraid of the rejection itself, my answer should be "no." But it's NOT the rejection I'm afraid of. It's the punishment.

I don't hear anybody really talking about this, but I think that we should be talking about this more loudly.

I think we should be talking about all the ways that men are punished for doing the task that is assigned to men ANYWAYS. I am meaning how men are forced to be the ones to initiate, or else nothing's ever happening for you. What sense does it make to force a person do a job, refuse to tell them how to do it "right," and then dole out powerful punishments for doing it "wrong" ..?

I want us to be vigilant about making it safe for men to make sexual requests of women. And I want to get the word out that we need to be compassionate for boys and men who are making sexual requests. There's this whole thing about shaming socially awkward men, especially socially awkward men who are making sexual requests. Yet these are the people who MOST need to make awkward sexual requests, so that they can develop to the point where they can make skilled sexual requests.

My experience from talking with women is that they have simply NO CONCEPT of what the punishments are like for men. Norah Vincent wrote about this in "Self-Made Man," and trying to explain to women what the situation was. I know a feminist woman who goes to bars in order to compete to make men cry, with her friends. I want men to go out there, and talk about the punishments. (I told several feminist women about this, and they said, "That's not feminist! That's not what a feminist would do!", but... ...they were all friends with the feminist who does this. They just weren't aware that it was her.)

At the very least, whenever you hear the phrase "fear of rejection," consider replacing the phrase with: "Fear of Punishment," and think about what exactly are the things you are fearing having happened.

I think men are being made to take on too much crap from women, and I think men are too often serving as the servants of women in dishing out punishment and shame. I want us to push for more sensitive women.

[theplummer]

I agree, what ever happened to feeling flattered by the compliment, rather than being offended enough that someone undesirable (to them) to the point of outward ridicule.

I think the entitlement issue among women is so pervasive that they feel it's their duty to shame you for even thinking about talking to a woman, all women for that matter.

[Andreas Roth II]

1st Amendment protected speech in a public forum.

[Fayerweather]

excellent points. I've seen these punishments play out over and over and over again. Most women don't think it's sufficient to just say "no thanks". they then need to deconstruct and mock the man's approach, his appearance, his looks etc. and basically tear him down to her friends.

[Fully Completly]

I agree 100% I would add though on top of these fears there is the fear that you will be subjected to forces you nor anyone else can understand. If you cannot understand them then you cannot predict them. Also, if you don't understand what is wrong there is no way to fix it. On another level some of the bullshit reasons women have given for not liking me etc are just so stupid beyond the fear factor there is an element of insult as I would never judge someone based upon some of the things people have judged me for.

You may just be unconventional / non conformist. Women seem to notice that right away about me as
well. I have seldom met an unconventional woman. Peer pressure / fitting in / socializing / keeping up
with the Joneses is way up there in importance for them it seems.

[Andreas Roth II]

1st Amendment protected speech in a public forum.

[RathaX]

Observing and sharing your fears is boldly genuine. Thanks for sharing this.

I've talked to some men that have been deeply hurt by male slut-shaming and gossip- like all these men cared about was sex and were therefore disgusting and bad, gossiped about by the sisterhood of his social groups. As the whole group took on the BS, he had no where to turn until people lost interest. It sounded a lot like being socially exiled which I believe to be the scariest of human punishments.

I think most men would be surprised by how many women /are/ interested in them-- but most are so stuck in their own shame-worlds they cannot freely express sexuality without their own fears. They must control everything- and attraction and sex is a thing best when the person lets go and allows for vulnerability.

[dmschlom]

Interestingly enough, through sexual harassment and other laws, feminism seeks to increate fear of punishment among men, and also seeks to manipulate and goad women into punishing men for simply making advances.

[Andreas Roth II]

1st Amendment protected speech in a public forum.

[dmschlom]

What you are describing here is the female social world -- particularly that exists among females who are all single and unattached. It is impossible to describe it without the description of it sounding very negative and unattractive. In addition, while feminism attempts as much as possible to ensure that only men get the short end of the stick vis-a-vis the girl social world phenomenon, women most definitely get targeted by it too, more viciously than men do usually. Indeed, this process can be seen in the divisiveness that exists among feminists.

Oddly enough, it all serves an evolutionary purpose, if you consider the fact that the girl world and the girl social rules are so toxic that bands of females really have a tough time staying cohesive without regularly ganging up on one of their own. The end result is that the social rule of the girl world inevitably drive women into the arms of men, where they can at least find peace from the cattiness of the girl world. I do think that men, in all male settings, tend to be less toxic socially. That makes sense given the fact that men are physically stronger and were always better at taking care of themselves, whereas women always tend to be dependent upon men. In lush times, women can temporarily afford distance from men, but when the going gets tough, they need men to provide for them.