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‘Is there a man I can talk to?’: Stories of sexism at work

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  • ‘Is there a man I can talk to?’: Stories of sexism at work

    What crock of shit...

    http://www.seattletimes.com/nwshowca...exism-at-work/

    I've seen the gender sexism sword cut both ways at work and in society in general.

    However more often than not, it the men that seem to incur the deepest and most fatal wounds from that sword.

    Our justice ("just-us") system, and specifically divorce and family law in particular, are prime examples of gender bias on steroids.

    Those are venues where (statistically speaking) the men are really taking it in the shorts on both financial and emotional level.

    That is true gender bias...

    Not some bullshit experiences that more likely have more to do with the character of those particular individuals than their particular gender...

  • #2
    Bonderman replied, “Actually, what it shows is it’s much more likely to be more talking.”

    Stay single and prosper!

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Rollin66 View Post
      What crock of shit...

      http://www.seattletimes.com/nwshowca...exism-at-work/

      I've seen the gender sexism sword cut both ways at work and in society in general.

      However more often than not, it the men that seem to incur the deepest and most fatal wounds from that sword.

      Our justice ("just-us") system, and specifically divorce and family law in particular, are prime examples of gender bias on steroids.

      Those are venues where (statistically speaking) the men are really taking it in the shorts on both financial and emotional level.

      That is true gender bias...

      Not some bullshit experiences that more likely have more to do with the character of those particular individuals than their particular gender...

      All you have to do to recognize hateful Feminist propaganda is skip to the bottom to see if they have disabled the comments. In this case it's doubly-ironic.
      FEMINISM is a HATE GROUP - Feminists are HATEFUL PEOPLE
      It's time to call it out for what it is.
      == REJECT FEMINISM. EMBRACE HUMANITY ==


      The World of Men - Men's Rights / MGTOW / Sites of Interest to Men
      http://forums.avoiceformen.com/showt...nterest-to-Men

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Rollin66 View Post
        What crock of shit...

        http://www.seattletimes.com/nwshowca...exism-at-work/
        ..... some bullshit experiences that more likely have more to do with the character of those particular individuals than their particular gender...
        Indeed.
        The truth of the matter is contained in the piece, in a comment by mrs. Name Withheld:
        "What the experience tells me is that it’s a top-down cultural issue....".
        Yes. People talk shit to one another, bosses to employees, rivals to rivals, and sometimes the lower echelons get uppity, too.

        As if no man had ever been given a rude answer or been subjected to rude comments by anyone.
        The dearies shold try one week in boot camp, for instance.

        The irony is that this is all they have to complain about.
        Imagine some policeman tottering into the station in downtown Bagdad...
        "Help ... A car bomb just blew up 147 of us ...!"
        "Well, you can still wipe your feet and not bring all that mess in here."
        "Oh fer Isa ben Marjam's sake ... is there a man I can talk to?"
        "You brute. You brute ...! You senseless brute!"

        M

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        • #5
          Tf?

          I'm sure both genders are interrupted during meetings everywhere, and many of the comments those women received were harmless.

          There were two comments that I thought were ugly though, and I don't know why you can't see that.

          One of them was when that woman was told "The only reason you would be in the boardroom is if you were bringing us tea." Why the hell would he say that?

          The other comment is when that woman stated that the applicant wasn't fit for the job because medical data needs a lot of cleaning, and her colleague said, "I'm sure you know a lot about cleaning." Such an ugly statement to make, especially to a woman whose job it is to clean house and then have it used against her at the workplace.

          First off, I don't know why these women go through the trouble of complaining afterward, I woulda cussed his sorry little ass right then and there because he said it to me right then and there.

          Also, if anyone tells me "I'm sure you know a lot about cleaning," I woulda said yes I do, I do everything from cooking and doing the dishes all the way to laundry and cleaning the bathrooms, and there's nothing wrong with that.

          I don't mind phrases like, "Are you trying to find a husband," or "You would be a great secretary," or "Shouldn't a bachelor's degree be enough for you" because at heart, everyone assumes that women want to get married .. including female bosses with female employees.

          But phrases that are meant to belittle or discredit a co-worker on account of her role within the household are wrong:

          "Shouldn't you be cooking right now?"
          "You should stick to changing diapers"
          "All you're good for is having babies"

          These are valuable roles of women as wives and as mothers, and I don't know why they're used to belittle women anywhere, workplace or any other.

          These employees aren't some pimple-faced high school boys anymore, they're grown ass men working professionally so their comments carry a lotta weight, especially about their perceptions.

          Using housework to belittle women says a whole lotta things about men as well as feminism.

          The hell's the matter with you people.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Dee View Post
            I'm sure both genders are interrupted during meetings everywhere, and many of the comments those women received were harmless.

            There were two comments that I thought were ugly though /..../

            One of them was when that woman was told "The only reason you would be in the boardroom is if you were bringing us tea." Why the hell would he say that?

            The other comment is when that woman stated that the applicant wasn't fit for the job because medical data needs a lot of cleaning, and her colleague said, "I'm sure you know a lot about cleaning." Such an ugly statement to make, especially to a woman whose job it is to clean house and then have it used against her at the workplace.
            That's a fairly simple one. Studies of digital abuse show that abusers tend to go after perceived weaknesses in the current victim.
            Or, to save you some googling, they kick you where they think it hurts.
            So in order to demean aa woman, demean her _as_ as woman and _because_ she is a woman. The same for men, foreigners, workers, unemployed workers, people with no education, people with a lot of education, alphabet people, peuples de couleur, dwarves, cripples, idiots, freaks and monsters. And so on.
            Saying bad things about people, and even bad things that are obvioulsy wrong, is, sort of, what abuse _is_, when you look at it.

            So when you say
            I don't know why you can't see that
            the thing is, we do see that, and we've known it a long time - many years, actually; it's you who is a rookie and so new to the party.
            And that's why the answer to your rather inappropriate
            The hell's the matter with you people
            is: been there, done that, got the t-shirt, sucked the bones, when it comes to identifying abuse.
            Includung your above cussin', I might mention.

            M

            Comment


            • #7
              Actually, it makes sense to me that sometimes a man wants to talk to a man. Have you ever heard women give instructions how to go someplace?

              "Go down a ways to a yellow house, then turn this way," waving right or left hand, "then go past the yard with the tall grass, and it will be the next house on this side." Waving right or left hand.

              I learned if we were driving somewhere and had to stop and ask directions, if the one we asked was a woman, to let my daughter ask her for directions, which made no sense to me at all. Then, I let my daughter tell me which way to go, and it seemed to get us there.

              But, for example, we would pass a lot of yellow houses before she would tell me to turn. Made no sense. She is a smart woman, so one day I asked, "Do women really understand each other when they give those directions?"

              She laughed, and said, "Yes, we do."

              I said, "Okay, how do you know which yellow house to turn at when there are many?"

              She said, "Well, there will be something different about the yellow and we will know this is the one, not the others."

              I was going to say with all respect to Dee, but, no. Not with respect to Dee. When you let a woman where men are trying to do things for men, in the end nearly always it comes down to "it's all about MEEEEE." But, as I started to say there is a good chance when a man asks to talk to a man the women are talking woman-talk and he does not understand a word. Instead of fussing about the evil sexist male, learn how men communicate and talk to them that way, instead of demanding they talk your language.

              Comment


              • #8
                Oh, shucks, I forgot. There are women present. I did not say how men give directions. "Drive 2.3 miles north on this street, then turn right on Oliver Street, then drive 0.6 miles, and it will be house number 3248 on your left."

                This also explains why most pioneers were men. There are no yellow houses in the ocean.

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                • #9
                  polite_disagreement

                  - I don't know about men and women in general, but I have the worst sense of direction on the entire planet. Two steps out the door and I'm lost and then freak out. But the only person I ask for directions is my aunt .. the one who's great at math. Overall though, I think that men are mostly good at directions, spatial intelligence and what have you. I don't really care as long as I get to where I'm going.

                  - As for the rest of your post, I was referring to why women's role at home seems to be belittled, a grave indication.



                  Manalysis

                  - Ok so you've labeled it abuse, which is noteworthy at least.

                  - However, your post actually strengthens my original point, which is that the role of women as wives and mothers is belittled.

                  - Many of the qualities you brought up are negative, such as being an idiot, a cripple, unemployed, and so forth because they indicate a lacking of a quality.

                  - Why should being a mother or housewife be considered negative?

                  - If anything, abuse that would hurt would sound something like this:

                  1) If you knew anything about cleaning, your house wouldn't look so unkept.
                  2) If you knew anything about responsibility, your kids wouldn't be that neglected.
                  3) If you had what it takes, your family wouldn't be ordering out most the time.

                  - If you were to abuse a woman the exact same way you stated, you would have to indicate lack of motherly or wifely qualities, which would mean that they're appreciated to begin with .. and therefore, their absence would be bad.

                  - That's the comment that would hurt the most.

                  - It's so blatantly evident. The role of women as homemakers is indeed looked down upon, and that's the root cause of so many negative outcomes.

                  - When you show clear preference to boys, your little girl will automatically become a tomboy. When you tell women that their roles aren't valuable, many of them will turn around and start acting like men in pursuit of what's viewed as worthy.

                  - Rather than defend wrong behavior & perception, it's important to identify problems if you want solutions.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    [QUOTE=Dee;215408]
                    Manalysis
                    Ok so you've labeled it abuse, which is noteworthy at least.
                    Call it what you will. Saying something nasty; belittling ... same thing.

                    However, your post actually strengthens my original point, which is that the role of women as wives and mothers is belittled.

                    - Many of the qualities you brought up are negative, such as being an idiot, a cripple, unemployed, and so forth because they indicate a lacking of a quality.

                    - Why should being a mother or housewife be considered negative?

                    - If anything, abuse that would hurt would sound something like this:

                    1) If you knew anything about cleaning, your house wouldn't look so unkept.
                    2) If you knew anything about responsibility, your kids wouldn't be that neglected.
                    3) If you had what it takes, your family wouldn't be ordering out most the time.

                    - If you were to abuse a woman the exact same way you stated, you would have to indicate lack of motherly or wifely qualities, which would mean that they're appreciated to begin with .. and therefore, their absence would be bad.

                    - That's the comment that would hurt the most.
                    I don't think we need to make a running battle out of this one, either, I think we agree.
                    My take on what you say above is that, yes, sometimes it happens that the people who want to hurt you by saying things that hurt
                    make mistakes iin identifying what is going to hurt you. They miss the real target, aiming for an imagined one.
                    Had they known that mrs. Example prided herself on her housewifely skills of dusting porcelain picture frames, then that's what they would mock.
                    But they haven't done proper reconnaissance,and so misjudge poor mrs. Example completely.

                    As for why people have a negative image of SAHMs, I think you have to consult de Beauvoir's "Second Sex".
                    IIRC she deemed men's sphere of life the "real human existence", while 'monotonous drudgery in the home' had a subhuman touch.
                    All that goes back to her, if I'm not mistaken.

                    It's so blatantly evident. The role of women as homemakers is indeed looked down upon, and that's the root cause of so many negative outcomes.
                    Yes. But the negative outcome is intended.
                    Puritan preachers are always extra incensed when sin does not lead to devastation.
                    Rats really hate when the ship they leave does not sink.

                    When you show clear preference to boys, your little girl will automatically become a tomboy.
                    When you tell women that their roles aren't valuable, many of them will turn around and start acting like men in pursuit of what's viewed as worthy.
                    Watch out. You're on your way into the "gender roles are a social construct" trompe-l'œil.
                    I think great swathes of women have for generations grown up with boys receiving clear preference (in _some_ areas) without turning tomboys.
                    Because there's nurture, but there's also nature.

                    Rather than defend wrong behavior & perception, it's important to identify problems if you want solutions.
                    And there I think you've hit the essence of MRA on the head (or, possibly, distilled its nail, or something).

                    M

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                    • #11
                      I teach free English classes here in my little village. One day, my wife asked me, "Why are all your students, women?"

                      I put my hands in a prayerful position, rolled my eyes up to Heaven and said, "Purely coincidental!"

                      Then, I added, "Really, the men don't have any ambition. Any man who wants English class can have one."

                      I do like little girls, and have a lot of empathy for them. In Mexico, girls have very low self-esteem. I try to help as much as I can, while also anti-feministing them.

                      When I have a class of little girls, I might ask, "What is the work of men?" They will look confused. So, I tell them. "Men make the universe you live in. They make the houses; the streets; the sewage systems; the electricity system; the water system; the government offices; the highways."

                      Then, I ask them, "What is the work of women?" They look sad, because after listing all men do, it seems like women don't do anything important. Seriously. So, I tell them. "Women make every human in the universe!" And, they just beam! they know instantly it is true. And, they are happy.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by polite_disagreement View Post
                        When I have a class of little girls, I might ask, "What is the work of men?" They will look confused. So, I tell them. "Men make the universe you live in. They make the houses; the streets; the sewage systems; the electricity system; the water system; the government offices; the highways."

                        Then, I ask them, "What is the work of women?" They look sad, because after listing all men do, it seems like women don't do anything important. Seriously. So, I tell them. "Women make every human in the universe!" And, they just beam! they know instantly it is true. And, they are happy.


                        Ohhh .. polite_disagreement that was so nice

                        I gotta admit I wasn't expecting something positive .. on this post or in here overall these days .. I mean, people are talking about sex with robots and you're having one of those "how did I get here" moments.

                        But I really liked what you said .. very heartwarming .. and such a big statement.

                        And although I don't care much for rep points, I have nothing else to give :-)

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Dee View Post
                          Ohhh .. polite_disagreement that was so nice

                          I gotta admit I wasn't expecting something positive .. on this post or in here overall these days .. I mean, people are talking about sex with robots and you're having one of those "how did I get here" moments.

                          But I really liked what you said .. very heartwarming .. and such a big statement.

                          And although I don't care much for rep points, I have nothing else to give :-)

                          People *OUT THERE* are talking about sex with robots, Dee-- Feminist women are talking about it, to set the record straight.

                          I simply pointed it out.
                          FEMINISM is a HATE GROUP - Feminists are HATEFUL PEOPLE
                          It's time to call it out for what it is.
                          == REJECT FEMINISM. EMBRACE HUMANITY ==


                          The World of Men - Men's Rights / MGTOW / Sites of Interest to Men
                          http://forums.avoiceformen.com/showt...nterest-to-Men

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Having implemented my own GTHO program in 1997, my life is very positive. I tell anyone who will listen that this village is my personal paradise.

                            The best thing about it is that it brings out the best in me. In my annual Returns to Hell, the US brings out the worst in me.

                            I suspect from communicating with other expat men that most men find the same thing when they do their GTHO program. Most couples who move to Mexico return within 2 years. Men alone almost never do.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Most men who let women be housewives do so out of self-sacrifice to make her happy.

                              And not because the house is in dire need of cleaning.

                              I've met women with the attitude that, "I'm a woman, I don't work. I'm supposed to be home." Basically an entitlement to a life of leisure.

                              Other women take the completely opposite attitude they are not willing to be housewives, even when it's practical to do so.

                              I think it depends on the family and what their goals are.

                              If they have kids, it's often cheaper to let her stay home than to pay for daycare.

                              But once the kids are in school, she can work part-time, and once they're grown, she can go full-time.

                              I don't think "housewife" is a valid career choice in all case.

                              Like if you don't have kids then what are you a housewife of? You're just riding on a man's back.

                              This isn't the 1800's, where "housewife" denotes killing the chicken and plucking it, stirring clothes in a cauldron, chopping wood to heat water to give the kids a bath, etc etc.

                              Unless the house has 14 bedrooms, it doesn't need a full-time cleaner.

                              Likewise I think a family man does whatever he has to.

                              If it makes sense for him to stay home and do childcare, he'll stay home and do childcare.

                              If the wife falls terminally ill, he can be a caregiver.

                              If the house needs an earner, he'll go out and earn.

                              There's no place in family life for selfish douchebaggery.

                              "Oh the job is high pressure," what are you some kind of wilting flower?

                              Maybe you think you're too delicate to help me mow the lawn or do some gardening.

                              Gimme a break.

                              I'm so tired of women appealing to delicacy.

                              Like what, you think I'm not built for comfort?

                              There are things I consciously sacrifice myself for, there are people that I consciously put myself in danger to protect.

                              I don't do that because "God gave me a role" or whatever.

                              And that everyone should just take it for granted that I'm their unpaid bodyguard and servant.

                              My mom raised me and was there for me, she suffered to give me a good life, so I was willing to sacrifice for her.

                              It doesn't mean I'm willing to do that for everybody.

                              Or that I'm every woman's stone-hearted golem.

                              If you sacrifice for me, I'll sacrifice for you too.

                              If you sit there like Lady Godiva waiting for me to carry you, I will happily toss you overboard and allow her ladyship to swim.

                              I aint got no patience for divas.

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