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A Modest Proposal - Abortion Rights for Women and Men

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  • A Modest Proposal - Abortion Rights for Women and Men

    I believe that both men and women have the same right to be or not be parents-- at every step of the process. There is no reason why women have a "right" to abortions, it is simply an affordance made possible through technology and sympathy and concern towards the woman if she chooses not to be a mother. However, our society affords much less concern towards his plight, should he choose not to be a father. And yet, there is no real reason why he cannot be the beneficiary of an abortion as well, if he chooses. It is simply a technological construct which can be successfully applied at the behest of either parent-- if our society were really interested in fairness.

    Considering that the number one reason given by women for having an abortion is "I'm just not ready to be a Mommy right now", why is it that we have sympathy for her and none for him? Isn't he just entitled to an opinion and a choice? Isn't he just as apt to be "finishing up his degree" or "not able to financially support a child right now?" Or "not mature enough to be a parent just yet?" Or any of the other reasons why our society lauds women for their decision to abort their child. When a man walks away from a pregnant woman, he is making the choice to not be a parent in the only form he has available-- it really is analogous to a woman deciding to have an abortion.

    Women say men don't know what it's like to be pregnant-- and that is true-- and yet, when a woman has an abortion, she is no longer pregnant. And further, if the woman is complaining about being pregnant-- which is what the lament suggests-- having the abortion will resolve the issue. Women say that pregnancy is stressful and carries risks for the mother but also they say abortions are safe, effective and when done correctly hardly ever have complications. So having an abortion, if the risks involved in pregnancy are indeed any sort of real concern, will go a long way toward mitigating those risks, regardless of who is the originator of the request.

    There are yet further benefits to this arrangement, no woman will ever need to feel "trapped" or "enslaved" through pregnancy, and no man will ever feel "entrapped" by a woman. Moreover, every child will be born knowing absolutely that they were desired and wanted by both their mother and father-- since both parents had an opportunity to "opt-out". Additionally, there can be no further legitimate reason for fathers (or mothers) to abandon their offspring. If they together chose to bring the child into the world, then they jointly undertook the solemn obligation to love and care for that child, and thus giving even more weight to the State's argument that the parent-- either parent-- can and should be compelled, by force if necessary, to provide for the child. Neither parent could have any credible argument otherwise.

    This outlook is neither a "Feminist" nor a "Masculinist" perspective, but rather a joint "Egalitarian" perspective based on true equality and mutual respect between the parents. Fairness and equity is possible between the sexes, it simply requires that people start listening to one another and looking for cooperative solutions and stop blaming each other for perceived transgressions. Regardless of what was true in the past, the only way to the future is through mutual respect and concern for one another. The only question left really, is when will we all climb onto that bus?
    FEMINISM is a HATE GROUP - Feminists are HATEFUL PEOPLE
    It's time to call it out for what it is.
    == REJECT FEMINISM. EMBRACE HUMANITY ==


    The World of Men - Men's Rights / MGTOW / Sites of Interest to Men
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  • #2
    The problem with the idea is that no surgical operation is ever risk free, and it is inequitable for one person to be able to demand that another person undergo an operation.

    However, the right to demand that your partner take a "morning after pill" is more practical. A registry could be set up (private or government) where a man could file a demand that his sex partner take the pill (after telling her of course). If she refuses, then her right to claim child support is legally waived and the father's name cannot be placed on the birth certificate without his agreement.

    There will always be enforcement difficulties which (for instance) may require notification of the woman in front of a witness or recorded on video.

    If the man forgets to tell her and she becomes unreachable for some reason, that is his fault.
    My manner of thinking, so you say, cannot be approved. Do you suppose I care? A poor fool indeed is he who adopts a manner of thinking for others!
    - Marquis de Sade

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Verywierd View Post
      The problem with the idea is that no surgical operation is ever risk free, and it is inequitable for one person to be able to demand that another person undergo an operation.

      It's no more inequitable to demand an abortion than it is to stick someone on the hook for the next 18+ years simply because they had a night of sex with you.

      BTW, *nothing* is risk-free. After being roped into being a Daddy you could slip and fall in a puddle of spilled coffee at work, bang your head on the floor and be dead. Shit happens.

      Feminists have been crowing to the heavens how "safe" and "risk-free" abortion is. So it's time for some of that equality they're always droning on about.
      Last edited by mr_e; 05-25-2015, 06:35 AM.
      FEMINISM is a HATE GROUP - Feminists are HATEFUL PEOPLE
      It's time to call it out for what it is.
      == REJECT FEMINISM. EMBRACE HUMANITY ==


      The World of Men - Men's Rights / MGTOW / Sites of Interest to Men
      http://forums.avoiceformen.com/showt...nterest-to-Men

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      • #4
        Women abort their babies because they are selfish and don't want to get fat and give their baby to someone else.
        I have had 3 girls I know personally get abortions and all three me and my husband offered to give each girl 5 thousand dollars if we could keep the baby. They could see it anytime they wanted, and we would adopt it and raise it for her. All three girls told me how they couldn't have someone else raise their child. But they sure had no problem killing it.
        You got couples waiting for babies. Infertile couples. Homosexual couples. There are a lot of foster kids caught up in the system, but that is a different story, but newborn babies are always wanted.
        We would have given another child a home with two parents, but instead they were killed legally in a doctors office. It's a damn shame honestly.

        But yeah. Not many people care if a man is trapped having a kid he doesn't want. Shit, he will be milked for his money for 18 years more often than not. No outcry at all. Men HAVE to be ready for a baby. They need to be there and love a child they weren't even ready for. But moms? Nah, they can just go kill them.
        It makes no sense. This is what lead me to being an mra.
        Many many years ago a relative of mine's girlfriend got an abortion when he spent 3 or 4 months preparing to be a dad. He was so happy. And it was taken from him without a single person asking if it was okay to kill his baby. No one asking if he wanted to raise it himself. Barely anyone even gave him a sorry. They all stuck up for her instead of him.
        But anyone who had a couple brain cells can put the pieces together and realize the system is fucked up, and I would have no moral compass if I didn't think I had to fight against it.
        Dads need their babies or their wallets. Instead they are getting neither and women are getting both.

        Pregnancy is stressful. True. But women that say it's less stressful to kill your offspring is a fucking liar.

        And also, ask a doctor, if there are risks in the pregnancy, abortion is not the answer. The answer is usually bed rest, medication, or starting labor and delivering via c-section. If you talk to a good reliable doctor, they will say deliberately killing a baby or fetus does not contribute to the safety of the mother. Unless she has cancer and needs to go through chemo, it is a moot argument that women use because they want to stand for more women having freedom, even when said freedom makes no sense.

        I have seen men saying lately they should make it so a man can opt for a woman to get an abortion. How about, no one kills their babies? I couldn't imagine someone making me lie down and take a baby out of me just because the dad said so. A man should be able to leave so he doesn't have to pay for it if he is not ready to be a daddy. But making a childs heart stop beating when it is inside a willing mother? Killing is not the answer and would only make two evils, instead of just one, the one that feminists have already made legal, which is abortion and women getting the entire say in when it is done. And it is wrong and leaves a lot of should-of-been fathers behind. It's a sadness I can't comprehend.
        The deepest circle of hell is reserved for betrayers and mutineers.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Trustory View Post
          I have seen men saying lately they should make it so a man can opt for a woman to get an abortion. How about, no one kills their babies? I couldn't imagine someone making me lie down and take a baby out of me just because the dad said so. A man should be able to leave so he doesn't have to pay for it if he is not ready to be a daddy. But making a childs heart stop beating when it is inside a willing mother? Killing is not the answer and would only make two evils, instead of just one, the one that feminists have already made legal, which is abortion and women getting the entire say in when it is done. And it is wrong and leaves a lot of should-of-been fathers behind. It's a sadness I can't comprehend.
          The thing is Trustory under a different system I would be pro-life I WANT to be pro-life. But under the current frame work I simply can't be.

          Under the current framework I'm PRO-choice. Pro any choice I don't have to pay for if I don't want to.

          In principal in an ideal world abortion would be illegal. If the parents don't want to share custody the one that doesn't gets to legally opt out. Heck if it's the woman I'd even endorse them throwing in some sort of 'labor compensation' that the state can force the father to pay upon the birth of a healthy child.

          If neither parent wants the child it goes up for adoption.

          But under the current system where women totally control the circumstances under which a man becomes a father I HAVE to support abortion, ironically I have 'no choice', because persuading the woman in question to have an abortion of her own freewill is sometimes the unprepared father's ONLY opportunity at not ruining his entire life and being forced into an 18 year commitment he's not ready or able to meet.

          I wish we lived in a different world. One where women couldn't lie about their fertility status or have an accident they can legally force the state to ensure the man who slept with her pay for. But that's not the world we live in.

          So many corresponding laws have to change in order for me to support a pro-life position, even though I very want to from a point of principal.

          Consent to have sex isn't consent to father another person's child.
          Last edited by Maxx; 05-28-2015, 06:53 PM.
          "Being a cunt doesn't make you wrong." ComradePrescott

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Trustory View Post
            I have seen men saying lately they should make it so a man can opt for a woman to get an abortion. How about, no one kills their babies? I couldn't imagine someone making me lie down and take a baby out of me just because the dad said so. A man should be able to leave so he doesn't have to pay for it if he is not ready to be a daddy. But making a childs heart stop beating when it is inside a willing mother? Killing is not the answer and would only make two evils, instead of just one, the one that feminists have already made legal, which is abortion and women getting the entire say in when it is done. And it is wrong and leaves a lot of should-of-been fathers behind. It's a sadness I can't comprehend.

            That is indeed the crux of the issue, isn't it? Personally, I'm with you. I would much prefer to see children born and raised into a society that welcomes them and cherishes them. But unfortunately, we don't presently live in such a world. I believe that men and women should have the same reproductive options. That said, I am okay with a woman choosing to raise a child alone, without the father. But then, I am also okay with the father choosing to raise the child alone without the mother. The issue is the pregnancy.

            As far as I'm concerned, abortion is an external technological measure which can be employed on behalf of either parent. Or not-- we could just NOT do abortions at all and then everybody would have to live with (and be responsible for) the consequences of their actions.
            FEMINISM is a HATE GROUP - Feminists are HATEFUL PEOPLE
            It's time to call it out for what it is.
            == REJECT FEMINISM. EMBRACE HUMANITY ==


            The World of Men - Men's Rights / MGTOW / Sites of Interest to Men
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            • #7
              Originally posted by maxx View Post
              consent to have sex isn't consent to father another person's child.

              **abso-fucking-lutely** this.
              FEMINISM is a HATE GROUP - Feminists are HATEFUL PEOPLE
              It's time to call it out for what it is.
              == REJECT FEMINISM. EMBRACE HUMANITY ==


              The World of Men - Men's Rights / MGTOW / Sites of Interest to Men
              http://forums.avoiceformen.com/showt...nterest-to-Men

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Maxx View Post
                Under the current framework I'm PRO-choice. Pro any choice I don't have to pay for if I don't want to.
                I agree. Pro choice to choose to not pay for what you don't want to. But killing human offspring isn't acceptable to me.
                If you WANT to be pro life, than just be it.
                It's just as out there as the notion that men should have rights to their wallets and children.
                You can agree that you shouldn't have to pay for what you don't want to pay for, and still support the life of babies, that are being killed by their mothers and the life of babies that are wanted and loved by their fathers.

                Originally posted by Maxx View Post
                If neither parent wants the child it goes up for adoption.
                Exactly what I am sayin'. No reason to kill it. If no one wants it, it should go up for adoption. If the father doesn't want it, the mom can have it. If the mother doesn't want it, the father can have it.
                No reason for women to cry about not being ready to be a mommy yet. That is what adoption is for. Abortion is just them being selfish and they claim they do it because they don't want to be a mommy yet.
                That is why consent to sex is not consent to fatherhood or motherhood. Adoption exists. Why do so many people fail to remember this? I don't know. But it is there....So being pro life is absolutely practical.

                But I disagree that a man should ever persuade a woman to kill her child. Born or not. Ready to be born or a 3 month old squirmy fetus. Shame on any man to do that to a woman who was willing to be a mother.
                Persuade her to put it up for adoption, sure. But why is killing it so understandable now to you? It's not. You just feel bad for the guy that is going to be trapped, and I would do, but he should try and get her to give it to someone else who wants it, not kill it. Same principle applies to the man not ready to father a child.
                Shame on any woman that hits this man up for child support as well, a man who doesn't want to be a father in the first place should not have to risk that.
                Both of these are horrible people. Being selfish. One wanting to kill a willing mothers offspring and the other wanting to take money from a man not ready to pay for a child.
                To me it is again fighting evil with more evil.
                Principal wins for me on this one.
                Child support and abortion are two evils that need gone. Kids shouldn't be used as a ploy for money. And babies shouldn't be subject to death because of it's parents contraceptive mishaps.
                Last edited by Trustory; 05-29-2015, 04:48 AM.
                The deepest circle of hell is reserved for betrayers and mutineers.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Trustory View Post
                  No reason for women to cry about not being ready to be a mommy yet. That is what adoption is for. Abortion is just them being selfish and they claim they do it because they don't want to be a mommy yet.
                  What's selfish is having a baby and expecting someone else or the tax payer to pay for it. I'm PRO anything that lessens that. Including 'killing babies' as you put it.

                  If I have a family of my own one day on my own terms and I got money coming out of my pay checks each month to pay for the lifestyles of single moms who couldn't figure out how to put on a fucking condom or fucked some sailor from outta town and expect my kids to go with less so their little bastards can eat out on me?

                  Guess what? I'd fucking support the killing their fucking live ass kids nevermind their unborn ones. Because if they are on welfare they are taking food off my children's plates.

                  And it's logical and reasonable to want dead ANYONE that's taking food of YOUR children's plates, right?

                  I'd literally support ONLY state child support/benefit/welfare for the children of widowed servicemen (killed in action or accident or through illness)....and children with disabilities etc. That's it.

                  These are the ONLY single mothers on earth I want my tax money spent providing for.


                  The rest can take a fucking hike as far as I'm concerned.

                  Originally posted by Trustory View Post
                  That is why consent to sex is not consent to fatherhood or motherhood. Adoption exists. Why do so many people fail to remember this? I don't know. But it is there....So being pro life is absolutely practical.
                  Abortion exists too. What are you gonna do outlaw it? It'll just go underground or overseas. We live in a global economy. If people can't get it where they are they'll travel to some place they can.

                  Good luck outlawing it in progressive northern europe.

                  Originally posted by Trustory View Post
                  But I disagree that a man should ever persuade a woman to kill her child. Born or not. Ready to be born or a 3 month old squirmy fetus. Shame on any man to do that to a woman who was willing to be a mother.
                  I'd GLADLY take 18 years of your 'shame' over 18 years of child support that I can be court ordered to pay for a kid I wasn't even consulted on the creation of,didn't know exists and wasn't permitted to have anything to actually do with the development of and that I can be thrown in a fucking jail and assraped for not paying for any day of the fucking week sweetheart.

                  Originally posted by Trustory View Post
                  Persuade her to put it up for adoption, sure. But why is killing it so understandable now to you? It's not. You just feel bad for the guy that is going to be trapped, and I would do, but he should try and get her to give it to someone else who wants it, not kill it. Same principle applies to the man not ready to father a child.
                  Guess what...? If I'm 18 years old without a dime to my name and a condom breaks on me and some chick decides she's 'ready' to be a mother on me, it's a question of kill or be killed.

                  At 18 I worked in a department store stacking shelves. I'd still be there now 10 years later if some cunt had trapped me into premature fatherhood theb. And guess what if a chick had I'd probably have killed myself before now under those circumstances because I was pretty fucking far from where I wanted to be at 18 years old.

                  So yeh. I'm not into killing. But an aborition can be an act of self defence under certain circumstances. I not pro a choice that effectively kills ME.

                  If it kills my hopes and my dreams and my goals and my ambitions then how is it NOT a death sentence?

                  Originally posted by Trustory View Post
                  Shame on any woman that hits this man up for child support as well, a man who doesn't want to be a father in the first place should not have to risk that.
                  Both of these are horrible people. Being selfish. One wanting to kill a willing mothers offspring and the other wanting to take money from a man not ready to pay for a child.
                  To me it is again fighting evil with more evil.
                  There you go again with your shame. These women don't care about your shame. Feminists and liberals have been lionizing single motherhood for close on 4 decades now. You or I trying to shame them is a fucking fart in the window against the echo chamber of you go girl BS that these women are surrounded by.

                  'A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle', remember?

                  Originally posted by Trustory View Post
                  Principal wins for me on this one.
                  Child support and abortion are two evils that need gone. Kids shouldn't be used as a ploy for money. And babies shouldn't be subject to death because of it's parents contraceptive mishaps.
                  Child support isn't gonna be gone anytime soon in it's current form and you can't disinvent abortion either both are here to stay. And there isn't the political or cultural will to even debate the subject. Alot of campuses actually BAN pro-life demos and meets you know? So much for 'free speech' right?

                  You aren't even allowed to BE pro-life nevermind expect or petition your governement to actually attempt to reflect your position on the issue.

                  And as for mishaps. You are assuming it's an accident and while sometimes it might be often time it's a fucking trap. I support anything that allows men the slim potential of escaping the beartrap of premature child support based death sentence and spares the tax payer another fucking mouth an honest repsonsible person is forced to work to feed.

                  You don't think of it in terms of the 18 year old boy without a dime to his name trapped into a dead end job by child support payments who ends up depressed and takes his own life. You don't see THAT life set against the mishmash of cells growing inside a selfish cunt who didn't know how to work a condom right do you?

                  I get your position. But it's idealist. Reality is another story.
                  Last edited by Maxx; 05-30-2015, 12:28 AM.
                  "Being a cunt doesn't make you wrong." ComradePrescott

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                  • #10
                    Again, an 18 year old boy without a dime to his name can either persuade his girlfriend to abort the baby and stop a heartbeat that isn't their's after their screw up and take it out on their offspring, or give it up for adoption to a family that wants a child and would do anything they can to save it's life. One makes sense and one doesn't.
                    Me and my husband have been the people to try and get the baby that is on the chopping block. Multiple times. Their excuses were always selfish. Always.
                    If the fetus is killed, or the baby is given to someone else, BOTH scenarios would leave this young man free of paying child support. So what one do you think I am going to support?

                    It might not change overnight, but things have already changed. There are entire countries now (Ireland among them) that have banned abortion. There are states that have made the pain protection act so babies and fetuses that are scientifically proven to be capable of feeling pain to be spared in an abortion clinic. Some clinics are getting bulldozed in kansas as of right now.
                    Things wouldn't change if you had no one fighting against it. But if people do, it might.
                    Call me an idealist if you wish. I would rather that than someone who supports abortion.

                    And on the note that people are having 7 kids off our tax dollars, yeah it is super frustrating. I think people who have more than 4 biological kids are 99% of the time irresponsible. The population is already increasing and I think couples should have to have one person have a vasectomy or a tubal ligation and it should be mandatory after 3 children if they collect welfare or any type of assistance. Single moms of course would be the main ones that would affect. It might sound crazy, but it would be a lot better than these women having 8 kids and living off our hard earned money, it makes no sense. But killing their live children? Yeah no thanks. I would take one of their kids though, and raise it under my roof, instead of killing them.
                    The deepest circle of hell is reserved for betrayers and mutineers.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Verywierd View Post
                      The problem with the idea is that no surgical operation is ever risk free
                      First of all, abortion is NOT a surgical procedure unless it is done in the second trimester. In the first trimester, virtually all abortions are done through the administration of medication. Second, not a single woman has died of a medically competent abortion in the US since it was legalized. The astonishingly few cases where somebody did were all incidences of malpractice.

                      I don't really believe in abortion, but when done with properly skilled medical personnel, it's safer than walking across the street to get to the clinic.
                      Last edited by MrAndryist; 05-30-2015, 04:17 AM.
                      Spoon boy: Do not try and bend the Patriarchy. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth.
                      Neo: What truth?
                      Spoon boy: There is no Patriarchy.

                      Apparently, women get only 77 cents for every dollar a man earns. We only have 23 cents left, but feminists insist they want the rest.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Trustory View Post
                        Again, an 18 year old boy without a dime to his name can either persuade his girlfriend to abort the baby and stop a heartbeat that isn't their's after their screw up and take it out on their offspring, or give it up for adoption to a family that wants a child and would do anything they can to save it's life. One makes sense and one doesn't.
                        You are assuming it's their SHARED screw up. Last I checked women have the power to control their fertility men don't. If they finally make a male pill I'll be all over that shit but until then it's on HER.

                        Accept of course it isn't.

                        You are ignoring the fact that the law and state supports the woman digging her heels refusing adoption OR abortion and instead making someone else i.e the boy without a dime or the state or a combination of the two to pay for her 'choice'.

                        Under those circumstances I'd go even further and support the state doing fucking forced abortions on unmarried women who expect other people's children to go with less in order to pay for their choices.

                        Fuck 'em. That's my ideal world right there.

                        Calling it being ''PRO-good people' if you prefer.

                        Originally posted by Trustory View Post
                        Me and my husband have been the people to try and get the baby that is on the chopping block. Multiple times. Their excuses were always selfish. Always.
                        If the fetus is killed, or the baby is given to someone else, BOTH scenarios would leave this young man free of paying child support. So what one do you think I am going to support?
                        You are ignoring the far more common scenario that happens most of the time. The woman makes the choice alone and the guy (and the tax payer) fall in line accordingly without any sort of say in the matter either way. That's by FAR the MOST common way it plays out.

                        In the handful of cases where there is a genuine accident between two reasonable human beings sure the woman might do well to consider adoption. But then again the laws insures that she reserves the right to suddenly have motherly pangs at the 11th hour cancel the adoption and rope the boy or the state into supporting her even AFTER she agrees to go the adoption route.

                        Or of course it can all go the other way and she can decide to go the abortion route after agreeing on any of the other potential options on the table and kills a child of a guy who DID wanna be a father.

                        The current law basically gives the woman total control, total freedom to flip flop and to change her mind and to play havoc with all other people effected (including the unborn child) and everyone else (including innocent hard working families who's taxes go up to pay for her choices) just have to fall in line without a say in the matter.

                        The point is that thanks to feminists women now enjoy ALL the rights and none of accountability. They can basically do whatever the fuck they like and everyone else has to figure out a way of making her choice work for her. They can abort a baby that someone else is willing or able to raise, they can birth a baby no one is willing or able to raise, they can basically do whatever the fuck they want.

                        Given that state of affairs that innocent little life ain't so innocent really is it? It's a potential drain on the resources of an honest hard working family like yours. At that point it becomes unfair. It becomes a system that supports selfish women at the expense of selfless women and hard-working men.

                        It's broken.

                        But taking abortion off the table doesn't solve the problem (it'll always be legal and/or available SOMEWHERE).

                        Like I said I would go another route.

                        I'd ENCOURAGE pregnant single women to have abortions. I'd actually SUBSIDIZE abortion for single unmarried women instead of single motherhood. Because paying a one off payment to have a fetus aborted will in the long run cost honest people and honest families alot less than 18 years of someone else's child support does.

                        I'd define marriage as strictly between one and one woman. And I'd bring in tax breaks and incentives to enable that. I'd do everything in my power to make it worthwhile for one and one woman to live under the same roof as their biological children until said children are adults.

                        I'd take away anything that subsidizes and enables and encourages any sort of alternative arrangement to that. Starting with gay marriage.

                        Under that system women wouldn't WANT to be pregnant without being married because they'd have nothing to gain and everything to lose. I'd set up a system where women are strongly incentivized to make the choices that I want them to make.

                        Namely the choices that involve having children with men that want to have them within support networks in which they are financially and emotionally supported and provided for.

                        The current system in the west is total back to front. It rewards fuck ups and selfish people at the expense of honest hard working ones.

                        A good man and good woman have to struggle to put food on their children's table. While selfish bitches get to raise bastards on their tab and men caught up in get to pay 18 years of child support change their identity or run away to panama.

                        Originally posted by Trustory View Post
                        It might not change overnight, but things have already changed. There are entire countries now (Ireland among them) that have banned abortion. There are states that have made the pain protection act so babies and fetuses that are scientifically proven to be capable of feeling pain to be spared in an abortion clinic. Some clinics are getting bulldozed in kansas as of right now.
                        Things wouldn't change if you had no one fighting against it. But if people do, it might.
                        Call me an idealist if you wish. I would rather that than someone who supports abortion.
                        I think it's battle over hearts and minds. I don't think you are gonna be able to force it from the top down. Part of the problem is that the argument is too often reduced to science vs god. And the right has made the mistake of allowing it to be framed in such terms.

                        Personally to me it's about economics.

                        Single mothers who make a 'her body her choice' are making a choice that other people are forced to deal with the financial fall out of. That's the issue. If pro-choice meant women make choices alone and pay for the choices they make alone too there wouldn't be a problem.

                        The current system means her body her choice and someone else's tab. That's wrong.

                        And feminists have framed it as a men vs women thing...and the right has let them.

                        You know which woman gets fucked over by the selfish single mom? The good woman. Women who actually try to raise their kids under one roof with a low income father are being punished so the state can finance the choices of selfish bitches.

                        We need to draw attention to the fact that encouraging single motherhood harms WOMEN. We need to do a better job of making that link. Faith based debates are all well and good but they don't really hold water with secular progressive statists.

                        For me that far stronger line of attack is the one about how a hard working honestly family should have to pay taxes that get spent paying for the choices and rights of selfish women.

                        Originally posted by Trustory View Post
                        And on the note that people are having 7 kids off our tax dollars, yeah it is super frustrating. I think people who have more than 4 biological kids are 99% of the time irresponsible. The population is already increasing and I think couples should have to have one person have a vasectomy or a tubal ligation and it should be mandatory after 3 children if they collect welfare or any type of assistance. Single moms of course would be the main ones that would affect. It might sound crazy, but it would be a lot better than these women having 8 kids and living off our hard earned money, it makes no sense. But killing their live children? Yeah no thanks. I would take one of their kids though, and raise it under my roof, instead of killing them.
                        Ok that's fine that you wanna take one of their kids.

                        But if I (as a hard working man) face the choice of either paying for their kids for 18 years through my taxes or paying for their abortion one time guess what I'm going for? Do I want my OWN kids to enjoy the fruits of my labor or someone else's?

                        I'm not fucking mother Tereasa here.

                        And that's to say nothing of all these kids born to single moms and raised on my dime whole become the car jackers and gangbangers of the future who I'll end up getting murdered in a parking lot by when I'd too old and frail to defend myself from them.

                        If you want to directly take on the burden of other people's unwanted children power to you. You'd be making a (noble) choice there. But where's my choice when it comes to opting out of paying for other people's kids through my taxes?

                        And again if I'm a single childless man society basically says 'fuck you'. I get that.

                        But what if I'm a dad? To a daughter? Why does my daughter deserve less because someone else made choices her daddy has to pay for out of his taxes? How's THAT fair?
                        Last edited by Maxx; 05-30-2015, 12:16 PM.
                        "Being a cunt doesn't make you wrong." ComradePrescott

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                        • #13
                          Men can control their fertility to an extent. Men can wear condoms. Also get vasectomies. It's a pretty short list in comparison to women but I was made while my mother was on birth control and never skipped a pill. None of the birth control methods are 100% accurate. If they were I wouldn't exist. That is why there is like a 12 year gap between me and my siblings. I was not planned and it is a shared responsibility on most occasions. My father didn't blame my mother. She took her pill every day at the exact same time. She didn't do anything wrong...

                          Also, two people both lie down to have sex. They both have birth control options. All options are not guaranteed without surgery. And Parenting should be shared also. I would never take the blame or sole responsibility for having our first child. Me and my husband had unprotected sex after 2 years together, ONE time, I said we should use a condom and he shook his head no. And I literally medically have ONE hormonal birth control option and had to wait to take care of it. He was aware of this. We BOTH got caught up in the moment. Not just me. So the majority of the time it is a shared responsibility. Unless someone lies about birth control or something, which of course does happen but that is an entire different story.

                          I just know you cannot always just chalk it up to eh women have the options and men have zero. Men almost always have a lot less, but still options. And sex takes two people, and a man and a women having sex are able to make a baby together, and we were told that before we made it to high school. So they should take responsibility when they need to as well.

                          And again I don't care who is responsible really. Mother or father or both. They should give their child to someone who wants it. Still doesn't justify abortion.
                          But I promise I am on the same page as you are with single mothers raising their kids on taxpayers money. And fathers who are not ready should not have to pay for a child they do not want.
                          But again, this is all a good reason to support adoption. The other option is needless to me.
                          If people want to get their abortions in a back alley somewhere illegally, whatever. Murder is illegal and it still happens too so of course it will still happen, but at least it is illegal and would happen a lot less often.
                          I am sure if women started dying from infections after killing their fetuses in a nasty illegal fashion, more women would take birth control a little more seriously. And the babies that were made would go to more happy families instead of labeled medical waste.
                          The deepest circle of hell is reserved for betrayers and mutineers.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Trustory View Post
                            Men can control their fertility to an extent. Men can wear condoms. Also get vasectomies. It's a pretty short list in comparison to women but I was made while my mother was on birth control and never skipped a pill. None of the birth control methods are 100% accurate. If they were I wouldn't exist. That is why there is like a 12 year gap between me and my siblings. I was not planned and it is a shared responsibility on most occasions. My father didn't blame my mother. She took her pill every day at the exact same time. She didn't do anything wrong...
                            You are talking about genuine accidents. That's one thing. But I'm talking about all the laws in place that enable financial entrapment of men by women.

                            Originally posted by Trustory View Post
                            Also, two people both lie down to have sex. They both have birth control options. All options are not guaranteed without surgery. And Parenting should be shared also. I would never take the blame or sole responsibility for having our first child. Me and my husband had unprotected sex after 2 years together, ONE time, I said we should use a condom and he shook his head no. And I literally medically have ONE hormonal birth control option and had to wait to take care of it. He was aware of this. We BOTH got caught up in the moment. Not just me. So the majority of the time it is a shared responsibility. Unless someone lies about birth control or something, which of course does happen but that is an entire different story.
                            Tru, it's not an entire different story because the law doesn't account for it. As far as the law is concerned the best is assumed of the female half and the worst is assumed of the male half.

                            Maybe it's a genuine accident but maybe the father wants it and the mother makes the choice without him or maybe he doesn't want it and she makes the choice to keep it. She makes the choice without him but it impacts on him either way.

                            As for responsibility my issue is that financial responsibility is all well and good but it's half the story. The other half is actual fathering. If a father can be FORCED to pay a mother should be FORCED to allow access. And the access should be guaranteed by laws. There shouldn't be a hundred and one legal ways for mothers to wiggle out of allowing children access to fathers.

                            And child support should be accounted for. Men paying should have an independent party account for and verify how their child support is being spent. And if it's being spent by the woman on shit for herself custody needs to be reviewed the mother needs to be held to account not enabled.

                            Originally posted by Trustory View Post
                            I just know you cannot always just chalk it up to eh women have the options and men have zero. Men almost always have a lot less, but still options. And sex takes two people, and a man and a women having sex are able to make a baby together, and we were told that before we made it to high school. So they should take responsibility when they need to as well.
                            Like I said if the law forced women to allow men to raise their kids as well as just pay for them then that's one thing. But it presently doesn't. It's one way responsibility. You have to PAY but she doesn't have to allow you to BE a father.

                            That's bullshit.

                            Originally posted by Trustory View Post
                            And again I don't care who is responsible really. Mother or father or both. They should give their child to someone who wants it. Still doesn't justify abortion.
                            But I promise I am on the same page as you are with single mothers raising their kids on taxpayers money. And fathers who are not ready should not have to pay for a child they do not want.
                            Tru, Suppose I meet you half way. How will you stop people abortion tourism or back alley abortions? That's another side of it. You can't disinvent it.

                            Originally posted by Trustory View Post
                            But again, this is all a good reason to support adoption. The other option is needless to me.
                            If people want to get their abortions in a back alley somewhere illegally, whatever. Murder is illegal and it still happens too so of course it will still happen, but at least it is illegal and would happen a lot less often.
                            Or it happens in a less safe way where people are put at increased risk.

                            Originally posted by Trustory View Post
                            I am sure if women started dying from infections after killing their fetuses in a nasty illegal fashion, more women would take birth control a little more seriously. And the babies that were made would go to more happy families instead of labeled medical waste.
                            Well that's a good point. But it doesn't account for the rest of the picture. Right now men are having their lives ruined by women who force them to pay for kids they didn't have an say in a creation of. That's already happening now. And taking abortion off the table means that it's gonna happen to even more men.

                            Especially because if a woman agree to an adoption the law still supports her right to change her mind...unless of course a gay couple is involved. Go figure.
                            "Being a cunt doesn't make you wrong." ComradePrescott

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Maxx View Post
                              The other half is actual fathering. If a father can be FORCED to pay a mother should be FORCED to allow access. And the access should be guaranteed by laws. There shouldn't be a hundred and one legal ways for mothers to wiggle out of allowing children access to fathers.

                              And child support should be accounted for. Men paying should have an independent party account for and verify how their child support is being spent. And if it's being spent by the woman on shit for herself custody needs to be reviewed the mother needs to be held to account not enabled.
                              Yeah. Forced access. Because fathering your kids should just be a human right.
                              Another reason abortion sucks. Too many dads didn't get the right at all to say it was theirs, too. The ones that WANTED to take responsibility were not even allowed to. It's bonkers.
                              But yeah. Child support should be tracked. Like 5% or less of the parents that get child support should actually get it. And the ones that do should be able to prove they are not spending it on manicures and shit to make her house look like its from a better home and gardens magazine while daddy lives in a studio apartment.

                              A few weeks ago my husband was waiting in his friends car and saw his friend hand over a check to his ex girlfriend. But his friend's kid was in HER car and he asked to say hi to his son that was in her car. And she said no. The guy got turned down to hug his damn child after he gave her money. Glad I wasn't there. I don't know if I could have done a very efficient job of containing myself. But it's funny, her new boyfriend is a cop. But she STILL collects her ex boyfriend's money. Because she can. And he can't do much about it.

                              But its real hard when shit is flipped and the dad is the one who claimed the mother was abusive and the father actually gets full custody, and takes the kids away from the mother. In all honesty, most mra's don't like to believe that it happens to good moms, they assume it was the right thing to happen, because a good mother would just never get her kids taken away. But it happens too. A shit ton less though for sure. But that is why no one believes it when it does.

                              I just wish shared custody and shared responsibility was the norm. For both parents. No one person gets to decide who gets the kids AND the money (usually the moms) it should be shared custody. And no one person should be able to decide the baby or fetus gets to die (always the moms) it should be a shared responsibility. It's just a shit deal all around when blame or pressure is constantly put on one, and sadly it is almost always the fathers.
                              The deepest circle of hell is reserved for betrayers and mutineers.

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