No announcement yet.

Hypocrisy Accusations vs Freedom of Speech/Thought

  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Hypocrisy Accusations vs Freedom of Speech/Thought

    MRA's think that the rape jokes are okay as long as real rape victims are not being joked about. MRA's think the society making misandric jokes ('Boys are stupid throw rocks at them' etc) are not okay even when no real victims are involved. Explain.

    Relevant article.

    I won't be arguing much, just wanted to gather some solid logic that can be used when someone makes a similar accusation. My own stand can be found in comments on the linked article; I don't mind misandric jokes or views unless they're coming from an authority that is supposed to be neutral (a school book or teacher reading 'Boys are stupid...', for example, would be unacceptable to me; other people doing this would not bother me as they're free to have their views).
    The MRM Glossary - From Zero to Hero MRA :P

  • #2
    RE: Hypocrisy Accusations vs Freedom of Speech/Thought

    "MRA's think that the rape jokes are okay"

    I think that could be an obvious place to start.

    I think you could reasonably say that comedy and tragedy are seperated by a fine line. This applies to all topics, not just rape. Different people will assess that dividing line in different positions. As such it is inevitable that some people will be offended by things considered humorous to other people. Again, this applies to all topics, not just rape.

    Thus it is an unproveable assertion to say that all MRAs think that all rape jokes are ok. However it is certain that some MRAs will find some rape jokes funny. It is also certain that some non mras will find some rape jokes funny.

    There is certainly no centralised statement of MRA values that requires MRAs to state that "ALL rape jokes are funny" before they can identify themselves as an MRA.

    Likewise, misandric jokes are concerned, it is unproveable assertion that all MRAs object to all misandric jokes. Actually, men (especially English men I might add!) are often comfortable enough with their own self image to not be offended by having fun poked at them. Of course, this has a lot to do with the tone. Maybe the problem isn't so much the misandric jokes as the tone they are delivered in, as well as the sheer quantity.

    Finally, 'Boys are stupid, throw rocks at them'. I have a pretty broad sense of humour, but this is simply an insult ("boys are stupid") followed by an imperitive to commit violence ("throw rocks at them"). I really struggle to see anything humorous about it.


    • #3
      RE: Hypocrisy Accusations vs Freedom of Speech/Thought

      Dhanu, that boys are stupid evolved into a very popular line of clothing wear, one that I saw recently on a cruise ship selling many t-shirts.

      Can you point me to a similar very popular line of clothing with many t-shirt sales making light of rape? I try to keep up with current fashion and cultural trends, but I don't know of a clothing line similar to the boys are stupid one.

      I don't mind the occassional joke on anything, I remember some sean connery movie about making jokes on god and the priests having to get murdered for it. Its good to be lighthearted, jokes are good. I could accept some internet jokes either way, for as I read in tricycle magazine once, those that take offense perhaps do as much or more damage as those they assume are giving offense, but to the point I saw clothing everywhere of little children wearing shirts that advocated for rape or for violence, I begin to lose my sense of humor, should I work on that? Should I have the right to pass laws restricting your freedoms to let your child wear a rape is fun, or throwing rocks at kids is fun shirt? What will you do without freedom?


      • #4
        RE: Hypocrisy Accusations vs Freedom of Speech/Thought

        Great responses. First of all, thank you for taking the time to read and respond.

        @cpb I understand your point. I also made similar arguments in comments on the linked article where I cleared my own position, just like you did your above. The immediate argument that follows is, why do MRA's take issue with misandric jokes while laughing at the rape jokes? And even though I personally am not like that, the question stands and I'm without any answer.

        One point you made is very good - That some MRA's find rape jokes funny, some do not, and there's no universal MRM stance that rape jokes must be treated as funny. Just like everything else, the opinion changes from person to person. This is in general a good argument and thank you for this. That article is though kind of like a statement that AVfM has taken a clear stance about the rape jokes and they're funny to AVfM. Being the prominent MRM site, then, it's only natural for any reader to make the assumption that the MRA's in general take the rape jokes as something funny. In the same way, some article may criticize something misandric (e.g., 'Boys are stupid...') as being wrong, and the readers get the impression that MRA's in general don't approve of such things when they're misandric. Therefore, while every MRA may have individual opinion for or against these things, the most common or prevalent view (the MRM's perceived stance) would be assumed to be the one being proposed in the articles. Those questions then arise from that assumption and I find myself without answer; because if I support my own views, that is not the whole MRM's view and hence becomes meaningless, and if I support the articles, then I'm contradicting my own views because I have no problem with misandric jokes while the articles find this kind of social misandry problematic. So I'm stuck.

        In short, the answer can be, "Every MRA has different view, nothing universal". But the asker would say that the views highlighted in the published article IS meant to be universal (or at least the AVfM's stance). To which I can't say anything further because the views of a writer may not necessarily be the same as those of a publication, but that may actually be the case with a movement based publication. So we're back to box 1 in the game. No definite or proper accusation, no definite refutation.

        @manginamagic I personally have no problem with those cloth stores, because parents are buying what they like and can avoid them if they don't like them. But yeah, now if a store decides to sell 'Girls are stupid' clothes and the feminists go all over it and get orders from a court to stop that line of clothing, I do have problem with that, because courts are supposed to be fair as I already stated.

        So if people are okay with 'Boys are stupid' and not with 'Girls are stupid', I'm fine. If courts are okay with 'Boys are stupid' and not with 'Girls are stupid', I'm not fine.

        As for the shirts with a rape related logo, I'm all for freedom of expression and they can print as many as they like. I believe if parents won't show interest in buying them, they'll automatically stop producing them. But rape might be an 18+ thing and may not be appropriate to expose to children, so in that case courts can interfere. I think for adult clothes the courts should have no say on any logos or slogans etc.

        The issue here, though, is not of individual attitudes, but of the perceived collective MRA viewpoint. We can individually justify ourselves but may not do so for the collective stance which is that MRA's have issues with misandric jokes but no issues with rape jokes.
        The MRM Glossary - From Zero to Hero MRA :P


        • #5
          RE: Hypocrisy Accusations vs Freedom of Speech/Thought

          G'day Dhanu,

          When you go into a comedy club and watch a stand up act you know going in that you might get offended. It's comedy and the thinking is that there is an "open season" on any or all races, religions, creeds, sexuality and so on. All is fair game in that environment. There are no minorities as everyone can be dealt a serve, however...

          When you have information in the public arena or information coming from a sphere of influence in a society there is an unworded caveat. The deal is no focusing on any section of society to bully, denigrate, give negative aspersions, mock, deride, silence by shame, belittle, endorse segregation of or call upon others to think suspiciously about.

          Unfortunately the caveat is ignored and these things can be seen everywhere with the issue of masculinity in any form and the source of that masculinity, males. The motivations vary from increasing sales in retail, or increasing funds for misandric institutions to name just two.

          Spheres of influence go beyond the billboard or retail outlets that sell bigoted Tee-shits. A news announcer can subtly raise just one eyebrow just before a report about DV where the man is a recipient. Just an eyebrow raised and a mischievous act has been committed where there is no accountability or debate. How about an advertisement on the radio where the jingle has the sound of a foolish man bumping his head or a TV sitcom where the laughs are heard when a stupid man locks his keys in his car and has to walk in the rain to his girlfriend's house? Those people that write these TV scripts or employ a misandric and manipulative TV anchor are the ones who are the real spheres of influence. I've just given a tiny sample of the SOI out there and with a few seconds of thought one can come up with a very large list.

          Comedians on stage do not count of course, but they do if their material is lopsided against one group. Can you imagine a comedian doing jokes only about "darkies", only "jewies", only "Crackers", only" wogs" or only about "poofs"? They'd last 2 seconds and that's a good thing too. In a comedic environment many groups must be "attacked" in order for there to be no conflating humour with bigotry. If you want a harmless message for entertainment only, then poke fun at the "darkies" and the "jewies" and the "crackers" and "wogs" and the "poofs" in the same show. Nobody is left out. The word "and" is the operative here not the word "only".

          I hope my comment here is food for thought mate and I'd love to see you expand on this thread with your comments as you develop other ideas, observations or concepts we missed.


          • #6
            RE: Hypocrisy Accusations vs Freedom of Speech/Thought

            Good day Dr F, and thank you for the excellent and helpful response, as always. This certainly contains all the reasons why the comedians focus on all the groups and not just one or two particular sections of society. (Exceptions do exist, like this comedian (warning: may be offensive to some) who only criticizes a particular group of people, but we all know such cases are rare and not representative of comedians in general.)

            And the society must have tolerance for the comedy that is done for the purpose of entertainment and not for spreading hatred. The comedian linked above is just a hater, and although personally I don't have a problem with even this person, I can see why people won't tolerate such people. This is hatred in the name of comedy. But barring such exceptions, most comedians' views must be tolerated. Because, if every group that is target of a comedian's jokes starts complaining, soon there won't be any comedy at all :D This always happens whenever someone makes the personal into a political. And the feminists are infamous for that, in fact that's all they do.

            Now I think I have my answer and I'd write it here to know if what I concluded is correct. The question was, why do MRA's support rape jokes but don't tolerate misandric jokes? The answer is this:

            Because comedians are, and should be, free to joke about any group, and the MRA's are okay with the misandric jokes as well, as long as they're meant as jokes just like the rape jokes are. The MRA's do have problem with the misandric jokes when that kind is the only one coming from an entity, because in that case, it's hatred (misandry) disguised as fun, just like the comedian linked above. In other words, if an entity is making all sorts of jokes targeting all groups with no particular group as target, the MRA's tolerate everything. But if some entity is always targeting males only, that is not fun but hatred and MRA's are opposed to it.

            Am I right? This seems like a good response to me. This can explain why MRA's are okay with comedians making rape jokes (they're okay with the misandric jokes from them too), and not okay with marketing campaigns that always make fun of men or boys only (because that is hatred toward a particular group). Do I speak for most MRA's with this stance?

            If yes, there remains one last question that an opponent may pose at this point: Since the MRA's make jokes about rape but not about misandry, that means they're not qualified to be treated as fair comedians because they are not targeting all groups (there are only 2 groups here: misandry victims and rape victims - both hypothetical/fictional; MRA's only target the latter ones). So, while MRA's are justified in supporting rape jokes coming from a fair comedian, they themselves cannot make such jokes because they're not fair. Is this conclusion correct?
            The MRM Glossary - From Zero to Hero MRA :P


            • #7
              RE: Hypocrisy Accusations vs Freedom of Speech/Thought

              To be honest, i'm really tired of people comparing MRA's with feminists and claiming if we don't hold up to pure honest motives, then we are just like feminists.

              Feminists have taken mens rights away TO-DAY. If your a man.. you have no rights. TO-DAY.

              Who did that? Feminists did that.. and they are continuing to do that.. and men and families are being destroyed by the MILLIONS....

              And when a small corner of the internet trys to shed some light on it.. we get pointed out with fingers and someone says, "YOUR JUST LIKE THE FEMINISTS!".

              Except, we have never denied womens rights.. ever. We have never went out of our way to posts video's, or blogs, or anything of violence against women.. ever. And yet somehow, we must be the same.

              To that I say.. why is there so much nick-picking and triviality?

              Its almost like how people view christians. With a 100x microscope, they zoom in on your life and look for 1 bad thing and say.. see? Your not like christ! Christ wouldn't do this..

              And likewise they zoom in and say.. see? Your not a MRA.. MRA's wouldn't do this.. you must be feminist!

              Its really getting old.

              You think people would say that the core message is more important so we could save lives.. but instead people want to argue over trivial things.

              What man is not going to make it today.. because we arguing over little things.. we miss the big picture.
              Behind every failure is a excuse.


              • #8
                RE: Hypocrisy Accusations vs Freedom of Speech/Thought

                That is why it's in "The Broken Record".
                The MRM Glossary - From Zero to Hero MRA :P


                • #9
                  RE: Hypocrisy Accusations vs Freedom of Speech/Thought

                  Everything is funny in the right context. Sexism, racism, rape, war, murder, starvation, Nazis, ANYTHING. Didn't AVFM have an objective vs Subjective article about this? Are these topics serious? yes. Can you make jokes about them? Sure as hell yes. When we can't take things funny and take everything too seriously that is when life itself has become miserable IMO.
                  My favorite MRA: Girl Writes What


                  • #10
                    RE: Hypocrisy Accusations vs Freedom of Speech/Thought

                    Could you post a link to that article? Thanks.
                    The MRM Glossary - From Zero to Hero MRA :P


                    • #11
                      RE: Hypocrisy Accusations vs Freedom of Speech/Thought

                      G'day Dhanu,

                      Think of it like this.

                      A bloke walks around in a party and cracks rape jokes. Some will think they're funny, others might not think so but don't mind the in-correctness of it and others might be offended while thinking the joke is funny or not. It wont matter because this bloke at the party is not a sphere of influence (SOI) in that environment and so big deal. Who really gives a shit? A few scowls and at worst ejection from the gathering. Nobody knows about it really and if they heard about it so what? He was just a dickhead that almost everybody in the world will never meet.

                      But, if that same guy is on stage and cracks jokes he is now a SOI. He is now officially in the public domain and the interaction between him and the audience matters as it will always go on record as to what happened - (Michael Richards for example)

                      Let's think about M. Richards for a moment. You've seen "that" video right? In part he said:

                      "Fifty years ago we'd have you upside-down with a fucking fork up your ass!
                      They're going to arrest me for calling a black man a nigger?
                      You can talk, you can talk, you're brave now motherfucker. Throw his ass out. He's a nigger! He's a nigger! He's a nigger! A nigger, look, there's a nigger! Oooo! Ooo...
                      All right, ya see? It shocks you, it shocks you, to see what's buried beneath, you stupid mother fuckers!
                      Well, you interrupted me, pal. That's what happens when you interrupt the white man, don't you know?
                      Cracker-ass? Are you calling me cracker-ass, nigga? "

                      ...and on and on he goes into the personal stuff. He blew it but it would have been different if he had pulled out at the right time with something that could have gone like this:

                      "Fifty years ago we'd have you upside-down with a fucking fork up your ass!
                      They're going to arrest me for calling a black man a nigger?
                      You can talk, you can talk, you're brave now motherfucker. Throw his ass out. He's a nigger! He's a nigger! He's a nigger! A nigger, look, there's a nigger! Oooo! Ooo...
                      You remind me of a fat white cracker cop in the forties yelling shit to some poor gypsy.
                      Please tell me you aren't a Nazi looking for Jews to round up or maybe you get your kicks like that chink motherfucker Pol Pot or Jerry Halwell rounding up fags to serve dinner at a Jesus convention for fat white chicks only.
                      Seriously dude, you give Ghandi a hard on because he sees a mission in your obnoxiousness and the retards in the back row here are dribbling saliva and jerkin' their heads about saying, "Ggg.. get... get him Kramer.. gett that heckler."

                      First four lines ok we got it, now please give all of us a serve.

                      He was on stage and a celebrity and that's a SOI two times over. He had a duty to widen the beam of "hate" to maximum and he had to do it fast without interruption. A hard call for sure with adlibbing and who among us would have been able to get out of that one?

                      So, you reckon that our detractors might say, "Well, you talk about rape and only target women. I want to hear you talk shit about men too. Let's hear you tell a misandric joke." I think you might be right in that they might try that on you and if they do tell please tell them from me to get stuffed. It's not your job to have an index card with you with a bunch of jokes on it that target all other demographs. How many other jokes do they want to hear before they decree you are now "off the hook". Yeah fuck that.

                      You are not a SOI when telling any (any) joke to anyone on the street or in your home or on a bus or a party or wherever you might tell it. Remember, that what they are trying to assert is your "intention" behind the joke. This is what they are arrogantly translating from their interaction with you and it's a scam. Do not fall for it for a second. Only you know what your intention is as they have no powers of mind reading I believe. Your real intention is to tell a fictitious tale about nobody in a scenario that's not real and you are doing this because you are giving the gift of laughter to another. Period.

                      So, what are your thoughts? This is a very interesting thread and in my opinion a very important one as we blokes are so often told to shut the fuck up because it has been decreed. That is as you know, a very dangerous mindset when endorsed in a society.


                      • #12
                        RE: Hypocrisy Accusations vs Freedom of Speech/Thought

                        Yes that was exactly the problem I talked about facing when discussing with the feminists, Dr F. Only not a personal one of one individual (myself) or another nobody telling a joke. I mean... Wait, I'll just post a situation with actors. Suppose I'm ("D") arguing with a feminist ("F").

                        F: Rape jokes are not funny and nobody should make them. MRA's need to stop supporting them.

                        D: That is subjective. You don't like them then ignore them. I like them so I have no problem with them. Just because they're not funny to you or some other hypersensitive group doesn't mean they look bad to all. MRA's are only trying for freedom of speech to all, while the feminists tend to limit everyone's options for their hurt feelings.

                        F: That is hypocricy. What happens to their freedom of speech endorsement when we make misandric jokes? They're funny to us.

                        D: We're fine with all kinds of jokes but we oppose it when it's purely misandric only as in that case it's hatred hidden behind jokes.

                        F: There's one Dr F in the forums. Looks like he taught you this argument, right? Because you could never have come up with something like that on your own.

                        D: Why do you bother about my sources? I told you we're fine with misandric jokes as long as they're meant as fun. You feminists do it out of hatred because there's no other kinds of jokes you ever make.

                        F: Same is true of the MRA's. They never make misandric jokes.

                        D: Oh I do. I can tell you some right now...

                        F: You might, but MRA's in general don't. Who cares if you can make misandric jokes? You're a nobody and can make any kind of jokes or leave out any other kind. I was talking about the MRA's general position on the matter. If you say they only oppose the discrimination, then show me their misandric jokes.

                        D: I was already trying to tell you some good ones. So here we go...

                        F: No. As I told you, that's just you. MRA's have written an article on rape jokes. Show me theirs on misandric jokes.

                        D: It's not their duty to write everything to please you. I said they're okay with misandric jokes and that is it.

                        F: You think I should believe whatever you say?

                        So as you see, I'm out of arguments now. Of course I can just leave the discussion at this point but that would be like going away because I'm not being able to prove what I said. It's not important to prove to this person "F", it's about the bystanders learning from the discussion. If we had been talking about one person (myself), I could easily defend myself. But F is talking on behalf of feminism and D on behalf of the MRM. So Dr F, whilst your point that I, a non-celebrity, can just tell her to go away and stop bothering me would work, the audience would think that I'm being dishonest, which is not true. I just don't have something to present to "F".

                        My conclusive point, therefore, is the following. Whether it's important or laughable or whatever else I don't know

                        Point: The MRM needs to be cool with misandric jokes as long as they're being presented in the spirit of fun and not discrimination (this already is the case). We need an article either proving this or explicitly stating this stance of the MRM on misandric jokes (this is needed, or a link is needed if such an article already exists).

                        Once such an article is there, D can show it to F and shut F up.

                        I know this is unimportant and maybe a waste of a good MRA's time. But I'll gladly write a draft-sort-of myself if this idea clicks in the MRA's minds here. That would save you from at least a few comments of mine on threads here

                        If not, well no problem, I'll find another topic to discuss with "F".
                        The MRM Glossary - From Zero to Hero MRA :P


                        • #13
                          RE: Hypocrisy Accusations vs Freedom of Speech/Thought

                          G'day Dhanu,

                          When you get something like this,

                          "F: You think I should believe whatever you say?"

                          [All you need to is answer it followed by a query.]

                          "D: No. And I'm wondering how my answer of a yes or a no changes anything about what I have just told you. Please explain."

                          You throw their stalling question into analysis and now they are accountable for the obviously dishonest question. It's dishonest because it's designed to fluster you and draw attention away from the content of your previous words to her/him/it.

                          This what these feminists do. They run out of material and focus on process and not content. They always do it just as the sun will always come up each day and how stars will only pop out at night.

                          I never debate these fuckers now. Not ever. I used to. I tried this and that and gave figures with citation and so on. The result was always (always) the same, a scrambling mess of shame from them with shouts or capital lettering and aspersions about my character. The insults flying here and there and no matter what I said they always refused to see the truth right there in front of them.

                          Say your piece and let them stew in their own misandric juices. Their numbers are slimming all the time and their shouts are getting louder and louder because of it.

                          Fuck 'em mate.


                          • #14
                            RE: Hypocrisy Accusations vs Freedom of Speech/Thought

                            Okay Dr F. Got it
                            The MRM Glossary - From Zero to Hero MRA :P


                            • #15
                              RE: Hypocrisy Accusations vs Freedom of Speech/Thought

                              Some people who have been the victims of certain forms of violence can laugh at jokes about the same violence -I am one of them. I can do this because I am an adult, with somewhat-functioning faculties of logic

                              Feminists are trained to take the perspective of finding problems and injustice in everything, including comedy. Jokes oppress women!!! bla bla bla.

                              This is a good example .
                              She critisizes feminists and abusive (Indian) males at the same time. Of couse, she is stereotyping those males, but I won't be starting a campaign of "get her banned" as feminists did with Daniel Tosh when he joked about rape. She also agrees with the notion that if women ruled the world there would be no wars... yeah, sure. So she stereotypes males, females, feminists; and most of it is funny shit. Not that it is truth, but I can laugh at it and not get my shorts in a knot with things like "women wage wars too, and women are abusive too"

                              At least she is a woman critisizing feminists... I love to hear that. Even if it's not exactly what I agee with, I believe that the more that females hear other females who are in some way critical of feminism, they learn that it's ok to be critical of it themselves. They can then share the attitude that feminism is BS.
                              Grandmother Stabs Her 4-Year-Old Grandson To Death