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  • #46
    RE: Important. Please read Re; Nasty thread.

    Originally posted by mattycakes
    Well, I appreciate the hand up, Dr. F. Thank you, and the effort you made to get in touch with me was very appreciated. Really, it was pretty much the last thing I was expecting, and really turned me around.

    Seaforth, Corbyworld, I appreciate both of you having something decent to say. You're both gentlemen and scholars.

    If Psychoeconomist, manginamagic, or Rekeyo happen to read this, please accept my sincere apologies. It was not my intention to make you feel I was attempting to curtail a line of thinking. I should have been clearer on that from the get-go. I was only concerned about felling into the same kind of thinking that we so often derade feminists for. Again, my apologies.

    Factory, my apologies to you as well. Hopefully we can move past our differences, and, even if we can't, the MRM is big enough for the both of us, I hope.

    Thanks again, Dr. F, you champion of justice, you.
    theres no hard feelings, heated debates in my opinion are the best way to reach the best possible conclusion. it curtailed a little too much with emotion in this case but it happens, best to move on and let bygones be bygones.

    Comment


    • #47
      RE: Important. Please read Re; Nasty thread.

      Originally posted by Factory
      As to the propriety involved, I don't know how many times I have to say it...I both agree with you, and stress that Dr F left me with no choice in the matter (unless I wanted to take a drubbing). You seem to think this is worse than the alternative (ie, take it for the team)...but I have been taking it up the ass for this movement for long enough that I shouldn't have to do it for other MRAs.
      Where we disagree is that you seem to feel that having this out privately is "taking one for the team". I don't see how pulling Dr. F and whomever else is on the staff that could make a decision about this aside and laying out your complaints is laying down and taking it. I certainly am not demanding you drop the argument, just saying that you should change the venue.

      The criticism of 'You're a mod, and scare me! You can't say such things!', insofar as it's valid, is answered like this from me:

      "Then take away the 'big scary mod' bit. I could give a fuck less. And I certainly won't prefer the 'power' to having the ability to say what I think. Frankly, considering I have done anything 'modlike' exactly once, which resulted in this...frankly the 'mod' thing can go fuck itself.
      It's not that you can't say what you want, the thread got a little heated but nobody was going "OH EM GEE FACTORY NOOOOOOOO MAH FEEWINGS", the disconnect was when you banned mc. That's not stating your opinion, that's pulling out the jackboots and the batons and telling dissenters to get in the train car. People get a little touchy about it and handling that is part of the reason why I hate being a moderator and never ever volunteer for the position. It's bullshit that you get scrutinized like that, but power, responsibility, uncle ben, etc.

      And you may have noticed, this very thread, where you posit I a, an asshole for responding, is STILL up referencing what a shit I am. Which means it would still be up if I had kept silent too. And Dr F is asleep, right, so no recourse there... So...PRACTICALLY speaking, what exactly would you have me do?

      Oh right. Take one for the 'team'. Just like always.
      Practically? Locked and Hidden with a post in the admin section calling Dr. F out for blindsiding you like this. I'm assuming admins can do that, but if you can't, practically, you could have not made any more posts in this thread past your first one and made a topic in the admin area to discuss it with Dr. F and the other staff who are quite frankly, the only people with any say in this at all. The thread would probably have died on page 3 if you'd left it be. Instead we're heading for page 6 and probably won't see an end to it unless it gets locked. It's not like that will stop an admin from posting in here or unlocking it later, so I can't understand your reluctance either beyond sheer petulance.

      Fuck man. Lock it and Hide it right now. It's aggravating you and you've been treated unfairly. If staff consensus is "deal with it" then you at least know that you're being shafted and can work from there. If they admit wrongdoing, ask that Dr. F apologize to you publicly. He seems to readily admit when he fucks up and I doubt you'd have to drag it out of him.

      You're abrasive and say exactly what you mean without consideration for others. I did say I kind of liked you for it too, even if I conceded that I think you're an asshole. Normally, I'd just say that you're rude but there was 2 rep points up for grabs and I'm a whore for rep.

      Comment


      • #48
        RE: Important. Please read Re; Nasty thread.

        This kind of thing happens in the MRM from time to time. Two or more otherwise good MRAs find a way to end up in battle with each other instead of our real enemies. I have seen it happen a thousand times, and I have been guilty of it myself. In the long run it means little, but in the short term it accomplishes little except hanging a bunch of dirty laundry out.

        Part of the setup for this was unfortunately me.

        I asked Dr. F to administrate this forum. He has done so admirably and consistently, putting time and effort in here each and every day. Regardless of my deep respect and love for Factory, which is not affected in the least by this exchange, it was unfair to Dr. F to put him in authority and then set up other permissions that tie his hands and prevent him from exerting authority when needed. I am forced to correct that today.

        In a month, this thread won't really mean anything, but I am aware that tempers are hot today. I suggest that all involved take a breather.

        I also ask that this not be taken into other threads. I want people to be able to speak here, but we are not in the business of feeding tumors.

        For those who really want to fight, we have plenty of projects at AVFM for which you can volunteer and fight the real enemy.

        Cheers,

        Paul

        Comment


        • #49
          RE: Important. Please read Re; Nasty thread.

          Again with the 'take it private' thing. And again, you frame it as MY problem. On a thread where another FORCED this issue into the public. And your response to "What do I do about the way this affects my rep?" You say standing up for myself ruins it further. I say if I didn't I would be a fucking hypocrite. And it was not ME that made this a thing.

          Frankly, it's posts like YOURS, by the way, extending this thread further than it 'has to' go. Let me put the scenario in an extrreme form so you can grasp it easier.

          OP: "Factory is an asshole and wrong and here's all the reasons why"

          Factory: "That's bullshit, and moreover the way you went about this is bullshit."

          3rd Party: Factory, you're an asshole for standing up. Propriety dictates you take this private, even though you yourself remain publicly attacked.

          Factory: How does this improve things for me? I've been placed in a no win situation where I can either be smeared without response, or risk looking 'defensive' by defending myself. So, I chose the least shitty (for ME) of all options.

          3rd Party: You're making yourself look bad. And you're unprofessional. And all this other shit. No, there's no alternative, but I'm gonna jump on you for defending yourself anyway. Not only that, but then I'M gonna pile on to the OP while trying to shame you into non-response.

          Sorry man, I'm not buying your shit. I was given a poo-poo-platter to eat, and instead I publicly refused. And I will CONTINUE to publicly refuse to eat shit for the greater good too. If that's what you want, you're not worth my time.

          Dr F did this...pretty much ALL of it...by reacting the way he did. You want to see asshole? I COULD post the entirety of Dr F and my correspondence to show just how out of the fucking blue this all came from. But see, I have integrity, and won't go 'low blow', even when that kind of thing is exactly what started the conflict.

          Let me make this clear. I will fucking walk away from all of you before I will eat shit for the team. That is non negotiable.

          Comment


          • #50
            RE: Important. Please read Re; Nasty thread.

            G'day folks,

            This is the last I will say of this matter publicly and privately except for Factory should he want to PM me.

            I'm the first to admit if I am wrong and I have demonstrated that here and on AVfM. In this instance I am certain I did the right thing.

            I see that there has been discussion about my not discussing this in private with Factory. We did however. There were three exchanges on this and my initial PM was a inquiry as to Factory's anger. He responded with his thoughts and I responded in kind. I stated I needed time to process his reasons and said I would reply in a day or so. I did.

            My last reply was letting Factory know I thought he stuffed up. I sent that PM to Paul Elam also (BCC) for the sake of transparency. In that last PM I said to Factory I was going to reply to him publicly and I immediately did. Factory was not online and therefore wasn't able to reply before I replied publicly and locked the thread. It wouldn't have mattered anyway as the damage was already done. I was committed to replying publicly no matter what.

            Factory is humiliated tremendously and I take no joy in this at all. I understand why he is dark on me to say the least and I will take that on the chin anyway.

            Factory if you want to publish the entire exchanges between us then you have my blessing. However I do not think it will do anything constructive but like I say you have my permission if it gives relief. You can have the last exchange as I am done.

            Take care please and let's move on.

            Comment


            • #51
              RE: Important. Please read Re; Nasty thread.

              Originally posted by Dr. F
              G'day folks,

              This is the last I will say of this matter publicly and privately except for Factory should he want to PM me.

              I'm the first to admit if I am wrong and I have demonstrated that here and on AVfM. In this instance I am certain I did the right thing.

              I see that there has been discussion about my not discussing this in private with Factory. We did however. There were three exchanges on this and my initial PM was a inquiry as to Factory's anger. He responded with his thoughts and I responded in kind. I stated I needed time to process his reasons and said I would reply in a day or so. I did.

              My last reply was letting Factory know I thought he stuffed up. I sent that PM to Paul Elam also (BCC) for the sake of transparency. In that last PM I said to Factory I was going to reply to him publicly and I immediately did. Factory was not online and therefore wasn't able to reply before I replied publicly and locked the thread. It wouldn't have mattered anyway as the damage was already done. I was committed to replying publicly no matter what.

              Factory is humiliated tremendously and I take no joy in this at all. I understand why he is dark on me to say the least and I will take that on the chin anyway.

              Factory if you want to publish the entire exchanges between us then you have my blessing. However I do not think it will do anything constructive but like I say you have my permission if it gives relief. You can have the last exchange as I am done.

              Take care please and let's move on.
              Go fuck yourself Dr F. And I truly mean that.

              The PM exchange:

              Dr F
              G'day Dan,

              Mate I will never say this publicly on the forum but I suspect (suspect only) that you might have jumped the gun.

              Being really passionate as you are about the censorship issue I can see how you might see ill intent in Matty's words. But seriously I think you might have run with it too far.

              Ok, I get that he's PC for sure. I can see that, but I can't see how he has tried to shut people up.

              I say this again while underlining what I said before when I said I miss things sometimes. I might still have missed something and will look again at the thread but very closely this time.

              Another thought that comes to mind is that you might be perceived as being a bit of a censorship guy yourself by "punishing him for speaking his thoughts only." I am not having a dig at you mate, not trying to score points or anything, just telling you what might happen on that thread is all.

              Dan I respect you greatly and I look back fondly to our discussion on The Dr. F Show, and I won't weigh in on this one save only here as a PM to you, but I have to say I am not wholly convinced about your assertions of Mattycakes's motivations. Not at the moment anyway.

              So can you think about the possibility that what I am saying might be true and at the same time I will give you the respect you deserve by reading the thread again very closely again to see what I might have missed.

              Ian.


              Factory:

              I don't think it's unreasonable to believe I am going too far. I have no idea if I am or not...that's why I rely on guys like you to let me know. But in this case, the easiest way to look at it is this:

              Look at mattycakes' argument...and try and establish all possible intents (points) for making said arguments. Then, try and support all of these possible reasons for making the argument through the next few responses.

              That's what I did, and I found the only possible intent was to shame the OP into never asking that kind of question again. If you can find any other possible intent that stands up to scrutiny, I am more than happy to entertain.

              Given the fact that I believe it could simply be hyperbole, or poor description skills on behalf of the OP, I thought it awfully aggressive to attack him for 'generalizing' (for the record, generalizing is impossible to avoid) without ever trying to really get at what the OP was saying.

              Maybe I missed the inquiries into actual meaning...but all I saw were castigations for DARING to not acknowledge the FACT that NAWALT....and I snapped. This guy might be an MRA, but he's no asset.

              Dr F:

              G'day Dan.

              Righto. Let me read it again and get back to you in a day. Ok.


              .....and then, the thread.

              So yeah, DR F might be sort of maybe kinda 'right' when he said he'd get back to me....

              Comment


              • #52
                RE: Important. Please read Re; Nasty thread.

                G'day Factory,

                I said I wasn't going to reply but when you are being dishonest by omitting to actually say what my final PM reply was I have no choice.

                Here is the final PM reply I sent to you that you 'sort of maybe kinda' missed in your reply here just now.

                --------------------------------------------------------------------
                G'day Dan.
                To: admin
                G'day Dan,

                Mate I have gone over the thread three times now and I am resolved now with my thoughts about what happened.

                Quite frankly you fucked up. Period.

                I looked at it from his point of view and I looked at it from your point of view and I read what he said and what you said and so on. I won't lie to you of course, and you do need to know your insults to him and your incredibly belligerent comments were completely out of line.

                When I boiled it down I can see one bloke who is most definetly not a troll speaking his thoughts about something and you did exactly what you were yelling at him not to do - You were promoting censorship and you did it in orders of magnitude that far outstripped anything he did in that department. This was a grave mistake of irony that in your anger you missed entirely.

                You even proved it with a 24 hr ban. That message was "Do not disagree with me or I will shut you up." Sorry mate but that is how it came across to me. I am not swayed by others who downvoted you when I say this. I am saying it because it's a fact but I can tell you they're right and you are wrong.

                You've inadvertently sent a message to the forum and that is that you know a shit load more than others (I agree that you do know more about MRA issues than most btw. Myself included) and that because of this your words are carved in stone. In other words, "Factory says you are talking shit then it is decreed."

                A forum is not a good forum when you get mods behaving like you did when it comes to differences of opinion.

                Seriously, even if you are 100 percent right and Mattycakes is 100 percent wrong, I have to ask myself how on Earth can you speak to someone like that?

                I can only ask that again in the light that from a personal level I would never speak to anyone like that except if they are a drug lord, a CEO of a tobacco company, an oil baron or of course a feminist. I am sure you have your own list too and I ask you to ask yourself if Mattycakes really deserved your nasty words to him. Was there another way of communicating to him? Was that the only option of style available to you?

                There is no way you can convince me that there was no other way. Like I said, you absolutely unequivocally fucked up and your credibility as someone in an admin position is questionable in my opinion.

                This movement is fragile as it is precious and it's more important than you or me. You have dented it in some measure and you've put me in a position where I have to step in on this mess (and it is a mess) and disagree with you publicly.

                I said I wouldn't, but that was before the full gravitas of the situation was evident to me. all bets are now off. This is too important Dan.

                Paul has officially made me head admin here and that means that I will pull rank on you if I have to. What that means is that this PM to you is also a warning that if you do this shit again I will get you demoted to registered user or even banned if I have to. First warning and last warning.

                It's not easy writing this to you because I, like just about everybody else, am fond of you. I love your YT videos and your magazine and your good charm and wit with great knowledge, but all of that is hermetically sealed off from your poor behaviour with this matter. I can separate the two and I am focusing on just one right now and that is your horrendous interplay with a respected member who by the way, has spent a shit more time and effort here on the forum than you.

                After I send this to you I am responding in public on that damaged thread (by your hand alone) and I am closing it off.

                If you have a problem with anything I've said here I am not interested. As you can see I have BCC'd this PM to Paul and I gave him a heads up about this matter tonight anyway.

                He has enough trust in me to tell me in support without reading the thread in question, "If I had enough balls to tell Angry Harry to fuck off then you can do the same to Dan."

                He's right and you know it.


                Ian.
                -------------------------------------------------------------------

                Please Factory. let it alone. I am now truly done. Make your last reply and make it a good one. You get the last word in and then I will lock the thread in good grace.

                Comment


                • #53
                  RE: Important. Please read Re; Nasty thread.

                  How ironic that this clusterfuck of a thread was intended to close out another clusterfuck of a thread.

                  The way I see it is that there's a fair bit of blame to go around. Jumping in and trying to defend one side or the other just adds to the resentment. It's like choosing between an unstoppable force and an immovable object.

                  This whole issue is really only about feelings at this point. It's completely illogical to continue it. Why, to get the last word in? So one can feel that he got the final punch in. It's ridiculous.

                  How about this. Ban everybody who participated in this thread for three days, everybody, moderators, ex moderators, members and junior members, including myself. We can all cool down, think of good ways to FTSU, come back and share our ideas.
                  “No one is free who has not obtained the empire of himself. No man is free who cannot command himself.”
                  ― Pythagoras

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    RE: Important. Please read Re; Nasty thread.

                    I stick by what I said earlier, this should not have gone public as it did.

                    If the offense that factory did was enough to warrant him being removed as a mod then yes you publicly demote him and apologize that you as the mod team allowed it to happen. If its not, then you should have given him the option of rectifying it with a public apology before you say anything publicly, if he chooses not to, then you remove his mod status.

                    The reason you do this is If he apologizes then it increases the mod teams authority without diminishing his authority. I'm sorry but the way this was handled and, is still being handled, is not very good.

                    There really should be documented and easy to find mod policies not only from the members perspective but on the side of the mods as well. What happens if a forum member has a grievance with a mod? what happens if a mod has a personal grievance with a forum member or another mod?
                    \"kthxbye\" is the pinnacle of English\'s advancement, shortening \"All correct, Thank you, God be with you.\" into seven lowercase letters. Humanity is doomed... - kaeru:urbandictionary

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      RE: Important. Please read Re; Nasty thread.

                      Oh as a quick edit, I'm a sensitive man, don't mock me for my emotional appeal for a united front on the AVFM forum. Perhaps we can design a mechanism to prevent such a public squabble. We don't want the neighbours calling the police.
                      “No one is free who has not obtained the empire of himself. No man is free who cannot command himself.”
                      ― Pythagoras

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        RE: Important. Please read Re; Nasty thread.

                        If this is in my inbox, I can't find it. But, here's my reply

                        Originally posted by Dr. F


                        G'day Factory,

                        I said I wasn't going to reply but when you are being dishonest by omitting to actually say what my final PM reply was I have no choice.

                        Here is the final PM reply I sent to you that you 'sort of maybe kinda' missed in your reply here just now.

                        --------------------------------------------------------------------
                        G'day Dan.
                        To: admin
                        G'day Dan,

                        Mate I have gone over the thread three times now and I am resolved now with my thoughts about what happened.

                        Quite frankly you fucked up. Period.

                        I looked at it from his point of view and I looked at it from your point of view and I read what he said and what you said and so on. I won't lie to you of course, and you do need to know your insults to him and your incredibly belligerent comments were completely out of line.
                        If you would outline some examples that are egregiously worse than what i received from MC...and I will point out I got those FIRST...then you're on to something.

                        I will admit that I let my temper get the best of me. I will even allow that I may have been interpreting the argument in a light other than was intended. What I do NOT see in that thread is where I went off the rails into belligerence. And you haven't supplied any real example of it either.

                        When I boiled it down I can see one bloke who is most definetly not a troll speaking his thoughts about something and you did exactly what you were yelling at him not to do - You were promoting censorship and you did it in orders of magnitude that far outstripped anything he did in that department. This was a grave mistake of irony that in your anger you missed entirely.
                        I didn't miss it. To some degree, it was intentional. "How do you like it?" I'll get back to this.

                        You even proved it with a 24 hr ban. That message was "Do not disagree with me or I will shut you up." Sorry mate but that is how it came across to me. I am not swayed by others who downvoted you when I say this. I am saying it because it's a fact but I can tell you they're right and you are wrong.
                        That is a legitimate argument, and one that could have been made without all the posturing and bullshit.

                        You've inadvertently sent a message to the forum and that is that you know a shit load more than others (I agree that you do know more about MRA issues than most btw. Myself included) and that because of this your words are carved in stone. In other words, "Factory says you are talking shit then it is decreed."
                        Yeah, first off, I will state there are VERY few people who have a better handle on this shit than I do. That and a buck and a half will buy you a McDonald's coffee. Curiously, that same attitude is what I was confronted with when attempting to point out the idiocy of the argument I was countering.

                        And as an addition, read the thread again, and you will see MC throw my 'adminship' (what a fucking joke THAT was) in my face repeatedly, positively DARING me to ban him for a day (which incidentally only became a thing due to you banning outright everyone who ever said anything that could possibly be construed as pro violence in any possible way, mr fucking hypocrite).

                        So, I did.

                        A forum is not a good forum when you get mods behaving like you did when it comes to differences of opinion.

                        Seriously, even if you are 100 percent right and Mattycakes is 100 percent wrong, I have to ask myself how on Earth can you speak to someone like that?

                        I can only ask that again in the light that from a personal level I would never speak to anyone like that except if they are a drug lord, a CEO of a tobacco company, an oil baron or of course a feminist. I am sure you have your own list too and I ask you to ask yourself if Mattycakes really deserved your nasty words to him. Was there another way of communicating to him? Was that the only option of style available to you?
                        A 'tone' argument? Really Dr F? Maybe you might want to see who took a shot at who first before you go off all Sir Knighty like that.

                        There is no way you can convince me that there was no other way. Like I said, you absolutely unequivocally fucked up and your credibility as someone in an admin position is questionable in my opinion.

                        This movement is fragile as it is precious and it's more important than you or me. You have dented it in some measure and you've put me in a position where I have to step in on this mess (and it is a mess) and disagree with you publicly.
                        You may have noticed 4 or 5 pages back, where MC said "sorry man" and I said "Me too" and it was done. Probably because it was a simple exchange, over and done. YOU are the fuck that decided it was time to take me behind the woodshed.

                        Well, I'll punch you right square back. If that 'reflects badly', tough shit.

                        I said I wouldn't, but that was before the full gravitas of the situation was evident to me. all bets are now off. This is too important Dan.

                        Paul has officially made me head admin here and that means that I will pull rank on you if I have to. What that means is that this PM to you is also a warning that if you do this shit again I will get you demoted to registered user or even banned if I have to. First warning and last warning.
                        Awww..lose my 'status' (that gets me shit on the first time I use it)? What a shitter.

                        It's not easy writing this to you because I, like just about everybody else, am fond of you. I love your YT videos and your magazine and your good charm and wit with great knowledge, but all of that is hermetically sealed off from your poor behaviour with this matter. I can separate the two and I am focusing on just one right now and that is your horrendous interplay with a respected member who by the way, has spent a shit more time and effort here on the forum than you.
                        Glad all those years of slogging every day mean something to you Dr F. Too bad I'm not spending that time here on the forum instead, so I can be 'popular' with the mod-crowd.

                        [quote]After I send this to you I am responding in public on that damaged thread (by your hand alone) and I am closing it off.

                        If you have a problem with anything I've said here I am not interested. As you can see I have BCC'd this PM to Paul and I gave him a heads up about this matter tonight anyway.

                        He has enough trust in me to tell me in support without reading the thread in question, "If I had enough balls to tell Angry Harry to fuck off then you can do the same to Dan."

                        He's right and you know it.{/quote]

                        Sure he is. You can tell me to fuck off all you like. But I don't have to take it.
                        --------------

                        Please Factory. let it alone. I am now truly done. Make your last reply and make it a good one. You get the last word in and then I will lock the thread in good grace.
                        Yeah, I have 'one last word' for you on this alright. Or more importantly, to the other MRAs reading this:

                        By his own admission you say I've done a lot for this movement, and I have. For years. I've even put a lot of work into trying to get this very site to where it is, although as one of many.

                        Out of respect for this work, and out of respect for my 'knowledge', you say throwing me under the bus like this 'pains' you. I guess.

                        Let this serve as example, either as proof we 'self police', or that the Staff around here is more than willing to fuck a guy over if it's politically acceptable. I never should have lifted a fucking finger for you people.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          RE: Important. Please read Re; Nasty thread.

                          Ok everyone, I am closing this thread and moving it to the Bat Shit Crazy section of the forum. As MRA's we MUST rise above this shit. We have to keep our eyes on the ball and threads like this tend to separate us rather than keep us moving forward to our shared goals.
                          De oppresso liber

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