Charlottesville

[voidspawn]

your'e seriously deranged mate.

...found some more nazis did you?

Well I have to admit, I did think he was bringing some challenge to the forum offering balance on a wider perspective when there was a chance of right wing bias.

But whereas members challenged the evidence and moved ever closer to some better conclusion on what the evidence says, he's just ranted more and more, the same old ever exaggerating accusations. I'd say he's aping left wing media but he's well ahead of them.

Fields was driving the car.
BUT...
You were all in the car!
You were all near the car!!
You were all in sight of the car (through the internets)!!!
And you all didn't immediately declare that everyone I fear is guilty, you tried to pin it all on Fields.
Like he was some deranged madman who was just flipping out towards a hostile crowd, which just randomly included masked people with bats. But they didn't have cars...
You are all guilty of not doing what I think you should have done, you should declare Fields a weapon of an evil Nazi anti-Semitic conspiracy and get busy arresting everyone who ever met him in any manner or form.
Exploring the evidence is protecting the guilty!
Those who protect the guilty are GUILTY.
You are all Nazis. Only I am innocent, only I stand up for justice.
The world is simple, don't you get it man!

Eric Berne described this behaviour: Now I’ve Got You, You Son of a Bitch (NIGYSOB)
http://www.ericberne.com/games-peopl...bitch-nigysob/

Whatever point he had, he's shat all over. He literally just wants to do what people have said on the forum is injustice. Arresting people who are guilty of association with Fields is wrong, it doesn't matter how despicable they are, or even how possible it was they filled his head with shit. Accusations are just one of consequences of free speech unless they have evidence that can stand up in court. Guilt by association, guilt by accusation are not acceptable in the enforcement of the law, even if they are allowed in free speech. An equal system of justice with the same evidentiary standards for all is something you must use free speech to defend.

Time to apply the wisdom of the internets, invoke Godwin's Law and stop feeding the troll.

[MatrixTransform]

offering balance on a wider perspective when there was a chance of right wing bias..

From the Left Pole ... everything looks like the extreme right.

speaking of right... I do believe you are correct

[MatrixTransform]

Just harmless fun, is all.)

sounds like a nazi

[MatrixTransform]

My kind of commie. Who is this guy?

nice heh? He has some pretty damn interesting things to say from time to time

[Manalysis]

sounds like a nazi

Oh, did I ape a German accent ...?

Sorry.

M

[Manalysis]

nice heh? He has some pretty damn interesting things to say from time to time

Yes. Far too reasonable to have any political impact, though.

Sigh.

M

[MatrixTransform]

Sorry.

That's enough Schnapps for you Old Fella

[MatrixTransform]

It certainly gets to the heart of those who would justify violence for their cause.

ah, finally found the time to watch ... nice, very nice

[mr_e]

It is hard for me to see them as victims, after the stuff they say and do about jews, blacks, hispanics... and so on...

I doubt you'll find a single one of us shedding any tears or losing any sleep over them. But there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between not agreeing with them (even passionately and with every fiber of your being) and actually PREVENTING THEM from speaking / exercising their Constitutionally-guaranteed right to expression.

The rest of us *ALSO* have the right to free expression-- and the BEST expression, IMO, would be to LAUGH OUR ASSES OFF at everything stupid thing that comes out of their mouths-- up until the point that doing so becomes active suppression of their right to speak / express themselves.

Understanding the rights we have in this country is sometimes a bit of a challenge. Living our lives in such a manner that we are *TOLERANT* of opinions we do not agree with-- even more so. And that is both the promise of America, and the reality of America. And the challenge we all face as Americans. We claim that we are great because we are a free, open and tolerant society. But the true test of our values and beliefs comes not when it is easy-- but when it is *HARD*.

[mr_e]

I think I have a very good understanding about nazi history...

For sure I have mention it on this debate... at least 2 times... Trump is a national socialist too.

blah blah blah blah blah

Your points aren't wrong, and they are valid, but they are missing the mark by a country mile. The issue isn't whether one specific event or another is heinous or bad-- of course they are, we all know that and we all acknowledge that.

The issue is TOTALITARIAN THINKING, which isn't limited to either the Left *OR* the Right. The issue is people lining up behind ARMED THUGS who are willing to commit VIOLENCE in their name-- and those same people standing ready to give them a pass, to conveniently look the other way, while those thugs do their dirty work, as they rush to rationalize their violence, and to justify their violence, and to cover-up their violence, and to white-wash their violence.

**THAT** is the issue.

[MatrixTransform]

Your points aren't wrong, and they are valid, but they are missing the mark by a country mile. The issue isn't whether one specific event or another is heinous or bad-- of course they are, we all know that and we all acknowledge that.

The issue is TOTALITARIAN THINKING, which isn't limited to either the Left *OR* the Right. The issue is people lining up behind ARMED THUGS who are willing to commit VIOLENCE in their name-- and those same people standing ready to give them a pass, to conveniently look the other way, while those thugs do their dirty work, as they rush to rationalize their violence, and to justify their violence, and to cover-up their violence, and to white-wash their violence.

**THAT** is the issue.

AGGGH! dammit, you've ruined the chance for his Gestalt Moment.

Mr.E you have a 'nice' streak that's about a mile wide. :-)

but more to the point, you've managed to condense a very salient point that was getting lost

[voidspawn]

AGGGH! dammit, you've ruined the chance for his Gestalt Moment.

Mr.E you have a 'nice' streak that's about a mile wide. :-)

but more to the point, you've managed to condense a very salient point that was getting lost

hehe

If I ever get run over by a lunatic in a car I hope Mr.E is nearby.

While everyone else is beating the shit out of the car and anyone else they don't like. Mr.E would be getting an ambulance and saving my life.

[mr_e]

-

- So what'd you find out, mr_e? False flag or the real deal?

- Gotta admit, 9/11 opened a whole new world as to what f'ked up shit states are able to pull, and the clearly evident financial reasons behind that. You'd have to be a complete idiot not to be aware of that.

- It's been real easy to identify the shitload of false flags we've gotten so far. If it happens in public where everybody's got a cell phone & there's no actual footage .. it's a hoax.

- I assumed Charlottesville was real since there was footage & it seemed real, but I'm interested in what you think because if anything .. so-called Neo Nazis are indeed a threat to the financial interest of lobbyists, the media, etc, and vilifying them fits the agenda like a glove. Not to the extent of civil riots though, but just enough to shut 'em up.

- In any case, both extremes are here to stay because the existence of one extreme demands the existence of the other & no one seems to be stepping down any time soon.

So far, it seems the jury is still out. If they knew for certain that he went there for the specific purpose to murder people with his car, they would have charged him with first degree murder, instead of second degree murder. So that right there is a very good indicator that there was more going on than meets the eye. Why else would they not charge him with first degree murder seeing as how there were so many eye-witnesses, corroborating stories, video footage from practically every angle, slow-motion frame-by-frame analysis-- and a mood running through society to put a jillion votes through the dude and nobody cares why-- they could have charged him with first degree murder without batting an eye-- and they could have put him away with the testimony of a thousand different witnesses-- except for one teeny, tiny, eensy, weensy little problem... They couldn't actually *PROVE* it-- at least not with the myriad of evidence they have so far. And apparently the District Attorney (or probably the Attorney General for this case) have a smidge more personal integrity than you do. Assuming you're knee-jerking and pearl-clutching your way through this like a large percentage of good little citizens, instead of looking at the evidence skeptically and forming your own opinions based on that evidence.

Personal integrity is tough. It's even tougher when it runs counter to what everybody else wants to think and declare.

Personally, I still think the same thing that I have thought and stated all throughout this mess-- if he's actually guilty-- hang him high. Heck, give me the lever and I'll pull it myself.

There is an issue here which transcends the events of that day, as ugly as they were-- which is what are our true American values, and what are our obligations as citizens to hold true to those values, to safeguard those values, with the goal of maintaining those values?

I would like to direct your attention to the situation of Nicola Sacco and Barolomeo Vanzetti, who were anarchists convicted of murdering two people during an armed robbery in 1920 and-- amid hot public sentiments advocating for swift punishment for the killers-- were subsequently tried, convicted and executed in the electric chair. Both men were unrelenting in their anarchist views which advocated "relentless warfare against a violent and oppressive government". It grew to become a 'cause célèbre' (a famous cause) which was taken up by celebrities, artists, and activists of the day. Both men maintained their innocence of the crime to their deaths, and their families continued advocating for them after their deaths. Subsequent analysis and more modern forensics techniques cleared them of the crimes for which they had been convicted and the government declared them to be exonerated post mortem.

Wikipedia: Sacco and Vanzetti
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacco_and_Vanzetti


My point being that a swift rush to judgement is not always the soundest course for the furtherment of a free and open society. And indeed, as the "Innocence Project" has so profoundly demonstrated, police, prosecutors, judges and juries very often get it wrong-- even when they believe they are doing the right thing. From innocent mistakes, imperfect memories, to judicial misconduct and blatant manufactured evidence-- people get wrongfully convicted all the time. And in fact, when you crunch the numbers, it turns out that the number one risk factor for being wrongfully convicted is simply to be male.

Innocence Project
https://www.innocenceproject.org/


What I am hoping you understand by this point, Dee, is that it is far from clear what his intent was. If they knew you can bet your bippie that they would have no problem at all charging him with first degree murder and hanging him high. As it stands, they can *still* upgrade the charges at any time if they discover more that could lead them to a certain conviction on those charges.

But the important thing-- at least in *MY* view-- is that they are having the *INTEGRITY* and the *COURAGE* to examine the evidence, WHEREVER IT LEADS, and then act upon the *EVIDENCE* and not their heated emotions.

And the FACT IS that ANTIFA was *ALSO* there with the STATED INTENTION (as evidence BOTH by their self-published online rheotoric *AND* their showing up wearing MASKS and ARMED TO THE TEETH with rocks, bricks, urine & feces, and baseball bats). President Trump was *ABSOLUTELY CORRECT* when he denounced the violence on ALL SIDES. Nor was this ANTIFA's first rodeo. They have caused violence and mayhem at quite a few locations, including the BERKELEY riots of a few month ago-- which happened not ONCE but TWICE when the UNIVERSITY OF BERKELEY extended **INVITATIONS** to conservative speakers to come *INVITED* to the University and address the students who wished to attend their discussions. (Note that the students were NOT being *COERCED* to believe or agree, nor was attendance *MANDATORY*, and the speakers are WELL-KNOWN and ESTABLISHED conservative pundits expressing generally mainstream conservative views). ANTIFA was there on THREE SEPARATE OCCASIONS to break up the events and SUPPRESS THE CONSTITUTIONALLY-PROTECTED CIVIL RIGHTS of these UNITED STATES CITIZENS from attending and speaking at a LEGALLY-SANCTIONED EVENT at the EXPRESSED INVITATION of the OWNER OF THE VENUE (The University of California, at Berkeley) which is SUPPOSEDLY the "home of Free Speech" in America. The third event was a bit "impromptu" where ANTIFA apparently just showed up to cause mayhem.

Let that sink in a bit, Dee.

And feel free to go out and corroborate my account. There are PLENTY of people on both sides who recorded the violence and lots of video footage and commentary for you to review. It's all there. It's all documented. Knock yourself out, Dee. Find out what's being done in YOUR name.

Nazis, Skinheads, White Supremacists-- along with BLM'ers, Women's Libbers, Feminists-- all of the people with DETESTED POINTS OF VIEW-- are all *WELCOME* to speak and express themselves UNMOLESTED in this country, Dee. *ALL OF THEM*. I can't stand a single one of them and would love nothing better than if they would all take a "long walk off a short pier"-- but I *AGREE* that they should be allowed to speak and people should be allowed to listen-- IF THEY CHOOSE to do so.

To arm yourselves to the teeth so you can go out and "bash some heads"-- to prevent people from LEGALLY EXERCISING THEIR RIGHTS-- is *WRONG*, Dee. It's WRONG. It doesn't matter if the RIGHT does it, it doesn't matter if the LEFT does it. It doesn't matter WHO does it-- it's WRONG.

[voidspawn]

Alison don't disappointment.

[mr_e]

- In any case, both extremes are here to stay because the existence of one extreme demands the existence of the other & no one seems to be stepping down any time soon.

If by this last remark you are referring to President Donald Trump, perhaps you might explain to me what exactly-- precisely-- using actual FACTS and not just "opinions"-- what he has *ACTUALLY DONE* that is so bad? He is going through a systematically dismantling the agencies and apparatus which has been erected over the last 40-50 years which is designed to cater to special-interests, provide "special rights" and exemptions, and *DIVIDE* our country from itself. I wholeheartedly *APPROVE*. All of the rest is pure bullshit concocted by the special snowflakes who can't stand the fact that they will have to actually get up off their pampered asses and *WORK* for a living. Do something that provides *VALUE* in order to be compensated.

The more he succeeds in *THAT*, the more inclined I'll be to vote for him again. To me, it's really THAT SIMPLE. I believe in America *for everybody*-- not just the "special few".