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  • Originally posted by mr_e View Post
    I actually do think this is a Men's Rights Issue, but only in a tangential, second or third-hand two or three times removed sort of way... By which I do not mean particularly the issue of the man driving the car or the woman getting crushed and killed-- those are separate issues to discuss. But the larger issue of one group petitioning the State (and receiving) a permit to assemble peaceably to present their views as is guaranteed under the United States Constitution, and having another group-- in *SEEMING APPARENT COLLUSION* with the State (a fact, which to my knowledge has not actually be *proven* but certainly alleged by a number of people)-- come in *already prepared to commit violence* (as stated quite publicly on their web site, and demonstrated in multiple other recent conflicts).

    There have been multiple confrontations recently between people who have been attempting to exercise their *CONSTITUTIONALLY-PROTECTED RIGHTS* to free speech and expression, and ANTIFA, the left-wing attack force (by their own description and admission) put together to *SUPPRESS* the *LEGALLY-PROTECTED RIGHT* of people engaged in such expression.

    Only *ONE*-- As in O-N-E -- of those events has involved "white supremacy", "neo-nazis", or the "extreme right". The others were OUTRIGHT BLATANT ATTACKS on people who were DULY INVITED BY THE INSTITUTIONS TO WHICH THEY WERE TO BE ENGAGED IN SPEAKING to *SUPPRESS* their views and opinions in a BLATANTLY ILLEGAL MANNER through the use of violence and heavy-handed oppressive tactics.

    Several of those speakers were in attendance to discuss Men's Rights issues, in addition to other Conservative talking points.

    That sort of violent suppression is not COMMUNIST in origin, even if the underlying viewpoints and goals of the organizers is ultimately Marxist in nature-- but rather FASCIST. In the same way that Mussolini's Brown Shirts were used to suppress and silence opposition to his regime:

    Wikipedia: BlackShirts (Brown Shirts)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackshirts
    I think these are very legitimate concerns. I'm in the UK, and to be honest I feel very bad about going on about such a terrible event in the US when I should be simply sending a message of sympathy and support to people in the US. For the longest part of my life I've believed in the subsidiarity, autonomy and self-determination of peoples and nations. 9/11 and what happened after has been like an unfolding slow motion nightmare, that has shown the world is tiny. The Manchester suicide bombing is in my home turf, the suspected bomb factory a couple of streets away from me. Over a decade later from 9/11 and all that's happened is the madness keeps spreading. It's pretty apparent the world is a small, connected place and there are implications to others for what happens 100s or even 1000s of miles away.

    As I see it now, the US is the front line for what happens elsewhere, what happens in the US is coming to a town near you sooner or later. I really really want fair law and justice to win out over violence and madness in the US, and good part of that is not just humanitarian, but plain old self interest.

    I think Charlottesville is a turning point event, I think even if the car attack or crash hadn't happened it would still be a turning point event. It is riddled with bad signs.

    The evidence that Antifa and BLM have large scale institutional, corporate and government support is getting undeniable. They have support and reach that goes far beyond just radicalising SJW professors turning young people into political weapons. The far right are happily playing ISIS type mind games with the right and conservative minded American people. By this I mean, what ISIS calls 'elimination of the grey area'. Simpleman may think I don't understand his concerns, I am sure I do. He thinks condemn these people and show clear distance, that is the morally right thing to do and probably the right tactical move. To that extent I agree they should be totally condemned and prosecuted to the full extent of their guilt and responsibility. But from my perspective as an act of universal justice, all of us being part of the same and equal justice system, ALL responsible need to be brought to account.

    Simpleman thinks that the system is massively failing, his view that Trump is the biggest piece of evidence of this and clear place to start. On that I don't know, I'm not American, I can't figure out what you guys can as to what is the best way to fix things. But from my perspective if the outcome is far left elements get a full victory. It's going to get worse faster. They won't be appeased, they are not there for justice they are going for power, they're supported by (or useful idiots to) very powerful people and institutions. The far right, Nazi's, white supremacists whatever they should be called seem to have pretty limited systemic power, they are getting pushed back and have lost the social and political debate about multi-cultural living. There isn't going to be a white states of America. It's never going to happen, from my perspective as a content resident of a multi-cultural city it sounds like an insane request to start with. However they won't stop wanting it, and repression of their views in this way, by cowardly government, lying media and violent sponsored faction - just like blackshirts - is a terrible outcome. It's what desperate extremists want, they want this blurring between Nazism and conservative or right wing views. If it pushes forward it will force people to them, people who have no interest in their separatism are being told you either surrender your values of freedom and rights or you get labelled a Nazi / Nazi sympathizer. This is an old repetitive history. The reasons will all get messy and people will be left with the only thing in their minds are what you wear and shout to identify what side you are on, and you pick sides on some basis of who is less likely to kill you. It's happening in Libya, Syria, Iraq, Somalia, Ukraine etc, about to kick off in Venezuela, there is no immunity to this in the West. We are just all humans, food goes in and comes out from the same ends, we have the same basic brain capacity for fear and emotional manipulation.

    You can almost map out the fork of history that may well get marked in Charlottesville. The speed of which Ms Heyer has been turned into a political martyr, with statements being put in the press supposedly by her mother aligning her with a side is gobsmacking. For nearly all of my life events like this the response from leaders in society has been calm down and show condolence and sympathy for the family. But not anymore, Ms Heyer, no matter what she is in reality is being turned to a martyr and that suits both extremist sides down to the ground.

    It will excuse further repression, already corporate freezing of far right channels, sites and funding has taken place, without even a twitch from government. So whether the government (i.e. legal authority) chooses to go hard or subtle won't really matter. Far right is being pushed underground and people who may have watched, read or listened for whatever reason, sympathetic or not are going to face accusation repression and treatment as second class citizens. The far left with government support will happily and jubilantly participate in repression in the desire to mop the 'evil', enjoy the power trip and show success to their supporters, and grab more power. That will push the numbers going underground greater and more deeply radicalise and breed their resentment. The far right who so far, at least in terms of visible leadership have talked about staying within the law, will move to rebellion against repression (the armed rebellion they want which they would be hoping will lead to their white state). That should sound horribly familar to what has happened in Iraq, the formation of Islamic State territories. These areas which don't settle into a form of constitutional statehood, but start bad and get worse. The world really really doesn't need that happening in the US. It doesn't matter if you like the US or hate the US, it's a terrible outcome. Now this might not happen in graphic or blatant terms, the world is more complicated than it's ever been a slow version of the unravelling, will also be a mess, I've still got strong memories of the Cold War and the Northern Ireland troubles, shitty lives can happen a lot of different ways, but there is a same root horror to it, reason, fairness, compassion and justice gone and living in fear taking over.
    Last edited by voidspawn; 08-18-2017, 04:54 PM.
    "...especially when it comes to communication, it can be observed, if it is not a negotiation it's a war."
    Originally posted by menrppl2
    Can't live with em, life is great without them.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by voidspawn View Post
      I think these are very legitimate concerns. I'm in the UK, and to be honest I feel very bad about going on about such a terrible event in the US when I should be simply sending a message of sympathy and support to people in the US. For the longest part of my life I've believed in the subsidiarity, autonomy and self-determination of peoples and nations. 9/11 and what happened after has been like an unfolding slow motion nightmare, that has shown the world is tiny. The Manchester suicide bombing is in my home turf, the suspected bomb factory a couple of streets away from me. Over a decade later from 9/11 and all that's happened is the madness keeps spreading. It's pretty apparent the world is a small, connected place and there are implications to others for what happens 100s or even 1000s of miles away.

      As I see it now, the US is the front line for what happens elsewhere, what happens in the US is coming to a town near you sooner or later. I really really want fair law and justice to win out over violence and madness in the US, and good part of that is not just humanitarian, but plain old self interest.

      I think Charlottesville is a turning point event, I think even if the car attack or crash hadn't happened it would still be a turning point event. It is riddled with bad signs.

      The evidence that Antifa and BLM have large scale institutional, corporate and government support is getting undeniable. They have support and reach that goes far beyond just radicalising SJW professors turning young people into political weapons. The far right are happily playing ISIS type mind games with the right and conservative minded American people. By this I mean, what ISIS calls 'elimination of the grey area'. Simpleman may think I don't understand his concerns, I am sure I do. He thinks condemn these people and show clear distance, that is the morally right thing to do and probably the right tactical move. To that extent I agree they should be totally condemned and prosecuted to the full extent of their guilt and responsibility. But from my perspective as an act of universal justice, all of us being part of the same and equal justice system, ALL responsible need to be brought to account.

      Simpleman thinks that the system is massively failing, his view that Trump is the biggest piece of evidence of this and clear place to start. On that I don't know, I'm not American, I can't figure out what you guys can as to what is the best way to fix things. But from my perspective if the outcome is far left elements get a full victory. It's going to get worse faster. They won't be appeased, they are not there for justice they are going for power, they're supported by (or useful idiots to) very powerful people and institutions. The far right, Nazi's, white supremacists whatever they should be called seem to have pretty limited systemic power, they are getting pushed back and have lost the social and political debate about multi-cultural living. There isn't going to be a white states of America. It's never going to happen, from my perspective as a content resident of a multi-cultural city it sounds like an insane request to start with. However they won't stop wanting it, and repression of their views in this way, by cowardly government, lying media and violent sponsored faction - just like blackshirts - is a terrible outcome. It's what desperate extremists want, they want this blurring between Nazism and conservative or right wing views. If it pushes forward it will force people to them, people who have no interest in their separatism are being told you either surrender your values of freedom and rights or you get labelled a Nazi / Nazi sympathizer. This is an old repetitive history. The reasons will all get messy and people will be left with the only thing in their minds are what you wear and shout to identify what side you are on, and you pick sides on some basis of who is less likely to kill you. It's happening in Libya, Syria, Iraq, Somalia, Ukraine etc, about to kick off in Venezuela, there is no immunity to this in the West. We are just all humans, food goes in and comes out from the same ends, we have the same basic brain capacity for fear and emotional manipulation.

      You can almost map out the fork of history that may well get marked in Charlottesville. The speed of which Ms Heyer has been turned into a political martyr, with statements being put in the press supposedly by her mother aligning her with a side is gobsmacking. For nearly all of my life events like this the response from leaders in society has been calm down and show condolence and sympathy for the family. But not anymore, Ms Heyer, no matter what she is in reality is being turned to a martyr and that suits both extremist sides down to the ground.

      It will excuse further repression, already corporate freezing of far right channels, sites and funding has taken place, without even a twitch from government. So whether the government (i.e. legal authority) chooses to go hard or subtle won't really matter. Far right is being pushed underground and people who may have watched, read or listened for whatever reason, sympathetic or not are going to face accusation repression and treatment as second class citizens. The far left with government support will happily and jubilantly participate in repression in the desire to mop the 'evil', enjoy the power trip and show success to their supporters, and grab more power. That will push the numbers going underground greater and more deeply radicalise and breed their resentment. The far right who so far, at least in terms of visible leadership have talked about staying within the law, will move to rebellion against repression (the armed rebellion they want which they would be hoping will lead to their white state). That should sound horribly familar to what has happened in Iraq, the formation of Islamic State territories. These areas which don't settle into a form of constitutional statehood, but start bad and get worse. The world really really doesn't need that happening in the US. It doesn't matter if you like the US or hate the US, it's a terrible outcome. Now this might not happen is graphic or blatant terms, the world is more complicated than it's ever been a slow version of the unravelling, will also be a mess, I've still got strong memories of the Cold War and the Northern Ireland troubles, shitty lives can happen a lot of different ways, but there is a same root horror to it, reason, fairness, compassion and justice gone and living in fear taking over.

      I hate to follow up such an eloquent post with a simple "I agree", but I do and you're right and its absolutely true. It is paramount that people in this country and around the world send the clear and unequivocal message that *ALL* hate is universally condemned, and that *ALL* violence is universally condemned. The ends DO NOT justify the means. If we fail in this we lose our soul. If we lose our soul then we have lost everything.

      I'm not even sure how to fight back effectively at this point without resorting to and engaging in the same sort of tactics which are being used to shut us down. And *THAT* of course, is the point and *WHY* they are doing what they are doing. To back us all into a corner and force us to react in kind so they can use that reaction to justify further escalation of the violence and whatever path that would entail.

      Somebody a few days ago in another forum suggested that perhaps the MRHM should look to getting some political muscle on its side-- perhaps by aligning with the National Rifle Association (NRA), for example, or some other similarly powerful and well-funded political groups, who have access to both lobbying expertise and legal assistance, as well as a fairly large and diverse group of supporters in their own right who are likely to be at least somewhat sympathetic to our issues and concerns. Men, after all, are the largest customer and consumer of guns. It seems like a natural fit-- albeit a bit of an uncomfortable one, IMO.

      Maybe there are other possible hookups to explore...?? Pfizer perhaps?
      FEMINISM is a HATE GROUP - Feminists are HATEFUL PEOPLE
      It's time to call it out for what it is.
      == REJECT FEMINISM. EMBRACE HUMANITY ==


      The World of Men - Men's Rights / MGTOW / Sites of Interest to Men
      http://forums.avoiceformen.com/showt...nterest-to-Men

      Comment


      • Circling the Square of President Trump’s Relationship With Race
        https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/08/1...m.facebook.com
        FEMINISM is a HATE GROUP - Feminists are HATEFUL PEOPLE
        It's time to call it out for what it is.
        == REJECT FEMINISM. EMBRACE HUMANITY ==


        The World of Men - Men's Rights / MGTOW / Sites of Interest to Men
        http://forums.avoiceformen.com/showt...nterest-to-Men

        Comment


        • Originally posted by simpleman View Post
          No all the people protesting the nazis are antifa...
          If you want to get technical, hardly anyone there was NS.

          Comment


          • >>Somebody a few days ago in another forum suggested that perhaps the MRHM should look to getting some political muscle on its side-- perhaps by aligning with the National Rifle Association (NRA), for example, or some other similarly powerful and well-funded political groups, who have access to both lobbying expertise and legal assistance, as well as a fairly large and diverse group of supporters in their own right who are likely to be at least somewhat sympathetic to our issues and concerns. Men, after all, are the largest customer and consumer of guns. It seems like a natural fit-- albeit a bit of an uncomfortable one, IMO.



            Forget it. None of these groups care what happens to other men. White Knights, and "I got mine" men wherever you go. Even on this forum, IMO. You are on your own, which is why I advocate Don't Get Married, and GTHO. Take care of yourself as best you can, and don't turn over control of your life to others.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by mr_e View Post
              Nobody is constructing anything. There is *already* an alternative narrative of the events and the people on this board have been discussing the pros and cons of both while not jumping to conclusions that are not in evidence.

              You seem to be doing your best to "force us" all into some pre-labeled box of "racists" and "right-wingers" for some reason I can't quite fathom. You seem to be telling us that we aren't allowed to consider alternate theories or look at the videos and evidence objectively and make comments regarding what we see and hear. You seem to be suggesting that if we point out inconsistencies in the mainstream media's portrayal of events, or the mainstream view that we are "neo nazis" or "white supremacists" or "supporting hate".
              I am definitely struggling with the fact that some people in this forums are taking a different position about this attack to the position they have take before, in relation to muslim attacks, for example.

              Every time a a fanatic muslim does an attack, you can see the whole muslim community making those blank statements, that we all have agree before look fake and mostly clinical... for example: "don't judge all the muslims by the actions of this single man"...

              Now I am finding the same kind of statements on this forums... and I have to wonder... some people here feel as part of a broader community that this extremist is a part of too?

              I know what I think about the so call "moderated muslims"... but now I am wondering if there is also "moderated nazis"?

              Those are my struggles.


              #1. I am an intelligent human being. My great big monkey brain allows me to have *TWO* competing thoughts / viewpoints in my head at ONE TIME.
              Sure, but then again my question... does it allow you to have it when the terrorists is for instance a muslim? Or this dual argument only works with fascist terrorists?

              #2. I *ACTUALLY BELIEVE* in the fundamental founding principles of our United States of America which hold forth that everyone has the right to peaceably assemble, to speak their views, to freely associate, and is innocent until proven guilty. And that we are ONE people forged out of MANY. (E Pluribus Unum, and all that). I don't have to *AGREE* with anybody's views or opinions in order to *SUPPORT* them having the right to *EXPRESS* them.
              I agree with this...

              #3. I don't hold the viewpoint that one kind of hate is morally superior to another kind. Hate is hate. What difference does it make when you're getting clubbed over the head with it? It might be useful to understand its origins if your goal is to work to *resolve* it. But apart from that, hate is hate. Violence is violence. Neither have any legitimate place or purpose in our political discourse.
              I have noted this before...

              And before I have made a difference between hate and violent... for example when I say that the neo-nazis are a hate group, and I think antifa is not hate but they are violent.

              However... In this particular case, I don't think there should be watered down with "all hate is equal"... I think the act of running people down with a car is not comparable to anything else that happened that day... It is not an escalation of violence... it is an acting out of ideals... this is how I understand it.

              To deeper it more, this guy was a walking bomb, and eventually he was going to do something... it happens this time this way, but the context is mostly incidental, he was already angry and motivated. YOu can blame the victims for... angering him, or challenge him to act it out... but I don't think the victims are where the focus should be, but in the man driving the car...

              Finally, you seem to be making the case much of the time that everyone here is "right wing" and supports "white supremacy"-- in which case I would like to point out to you the obvious fact.... yet here *YOU* are as well.
              Sure, but maybe I should not be here?

              I must say, I have seeing in the forums some serious off color remarks about immigrants, blacks, muslims, and what not... I think I should challenge it.. or maybe I should just leave and find me an environment that is more compatible with my ideas???

              I actually like your comments and conversations much of the time. But in *THIS* thread it has felt to me and (I think judging from comments) others as well, that you seem to have an agenda to push, an axe to grind, and an example to make-- as you sound like you're trying to push us and goad us into either mindlessly agreeing with you or saying something blatantly "racist" or "supremacist" so you can jump out and say "Ah Ha! I just knew it!"
              I am not pushing anybody... it is how things are unfolding...

              For instance I am shown a picture of someone hitting the side of the car with a stick... And accompanying the picture comes the description that claims that this was before he run people down with the car...

              So I understand with this is that the point here is that... ???

              If someone hit my car with a stick, is it OK for me, then, to run down 20 people with my car?

              Equal violence?

              Then I look at the video, and notice that he was already running people down with the car, by the moment of this hit with stick... So???

              Did that stick hit really justify what the car driver did? specially considering that he already hit some people with the car by that moment?

              At some level I have to consider that I am not the one with the agenda... And though I might consider that other forum member have make a wrong description of the picture, to make a blond point that is actually immoral... I have to consider that this forum member is acting out of good intentions and is not, deliberately lying and misleading... but maybe he himself is not clear?

              I think I can write down a full essay in this picture of the person hitting the side of the car with a stick, and the giving description of say picture...

              If that's NOT the case, then why don't you think about the tone that you're setting and the message that it's sending out because THAT is the way most of us are interpreting your comments. You're not a bad guy, and I'm not implying that. So don't bother trying to twist what I said in that direction. Nor am I telling you to shut up either. You have as much right to your viewpoint as anybody else has to theirs.

              And that's all any of us are doing, just talking and shooting the shit and telling each other what we think about what we're seeing and hearing.
              Perhaps it is just bad timing for people to be now be so sympathetic with hate groups.. have started to do that with, lest say, ISIS, and then bring it over to neo-nazis, I would have not be so much this conflicted about all this...

              But we can try.

              The guy that recently bomb a theater in England... both sides are violent, the muslims and the british, and we should not jump to conclusions and judge ISIS for what this one man did...

              Sounds like your split brain would be OK having this conversation?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by mr_e View Post
                I dunno... you tell me:

                Wikipedia: "BridgeGate"
                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_L...losure_scandal

                Wikipedia: "WaterGate"
                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergate_scandal

                Clinton Campaign Collusion
                http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-37639370
                OK, I take it... so here is something you and Black Lives Matters have in common, both think that the police is corrupted... though both disagree in corrupted with who...

                Maybe Trump get to fix the police too...

                Comment


                • Originally posted by voidspawn View Post
                  Wow you are so far gone in your pre-judgement and hate promoting agenda you can't even stand people taking a look at the available evidence and trying to sort out the order of what is visible. It's not even a comment about what the evidence demonstrates. It's the process of sharing eyes to figure out the order of things and placement of people.

                  You've really demonstrated that you don't give a damn about ANY facts whatsoever, to the extent that if people try to sort out the order of what impacted what, where were the victims standing, in other words what were the actual events - you scream conspiracy and attack people on the forum.
                  My hate promoting agenda???

                  I am evil.

                  Universally people on the forum are horrified by what happened, condemn violence and killing and see no place for violence in political debate. Do you deny this simpleman?
                  I don't know...

                  look, I like to think that most of the people act in accordance of what they think is good... Everyone wants to archive good... the problems come when there is different concepts of what good is.

                  Bigger problems come when people start to think that the people in the opposite group are seeking good, and instead conceptually that they want to archive evil.

                  Of course you are going to find evil people... but you are not going to find millions of them all together...

                  No one is denying the guilt of the perpetrator in what he did as is visible in the evidence. Do you deny this simpleman?
                  We have over 15 pages of people trying to rationalize and trying to justify why he run people over with a car... this is against self evident, the links to this pages are on top and bottom of this message.

                  You launched this thread because you wanted to moan about Trump. Do you deny this simpleman?
                  I launched it because it is part of my evil hate agenda.

                  You imply people were ignoring this incident by not having a thread about here, thus ignoring that people actually have lives and do actually know that in times like this you have no choice but to require the law does it's job. Do you deny this simpleman?
                  I pointed out a pattern, if a muslim doe a terrorist attack there will be more than 1 forum threat about the topic... I think people in this forum is particularly not interested on this atack because the driver is not a muslim or a Black lives matter or a member of any other group that we want to prove is evil... so I think people here ignored it, because it was not relevant to the points they want to make.

                  After so many pages, I can say that now I consider the option that some people in this forum might consider themselves part of the same ideological stream this terrorist is part of, and they are trying to damage control... but extranchly by rationalizing and justifying the attack...

                  This isn't a men's rights issue, there is no obligation on this forum to debate or discuss as if it is, this is just individual opinions on the information that is out there, and pretty much all the information comes from people pushing their judgement on it and not reporting their witnessing of it. Do you deny this simpleman?
                  In the OP I actually focused more in a witness testimony, but not a witness of the particular attack incident, instead a witness of an ongoing and never stopping hate.

                  As I say before, I consider the car attack the cherry on top of the cake, and basically the reason why this made it to the news, but there is thousands of other neo-nazi rallies that terrorized jews, blacks, immigrants, but because there is not a a fatal attack it goes ignore... those are cakes with not cherries... I wanted to bring my attention to those.

                  KKK and neo-nazis are hate groups. Run or not people with their cars... they still are hate groups... that is the core of my OP message.

                  The videos show strong, even conclusive evidence of the perpetrators actions and results of those actions (actus rea), no one denies this. Do you deny this simpleman?
                  Yes, of course, because in at least 2 occasions, by at least 2 different forum members, there have beign a still picture of this videos, and the pictures come with descriptions that... seeing the videos, are not accurate descriptions... Why?

                  Do the videos show evidence of the mental state and intent? That is what is being discussed, do you know why? Because it's important that mens rea be proven beyond reasonable doubt. The evidence may well pile up for it being conspirational terrorist act, the evidence of it being the perpetrator's solo terrorist act is pretty strong but not conclusive.
                  I don't care about the mental conditions of the attacker... as I don't care about the mental conditions of a terrorist muslim...

                  I don't accept a mental condition as a justification for a terror attack.

                  But now that we are down this road... does the mental condition of the attacker matters to you... when he is fascist? do you care for how crazy the muslim terrorist are?

                  There is a serious issue with it being a terrorist and criminal act. The evidence does show that the accused has an available legal defence. What he will use we don't know, we'll have to wait for reporting, same as you. But if he was threatened by attacks on his vehicle, IF he was being mobbed or genuinely feared being mobbed, that takes this out of terrorist attack and murder one categories. That's the IF situation, no one here is determining that, or will have a hand in determining it.
                  Any of the videos show this description you are giving here... The group of people was standing in a corner, and he arrives to there with his car... there was at least 100 different streets he could have gone through, if he had a peaceful motive.

                  You raised this thread, you put forward your theory, you ranted about Trump, and there is absolutely no reasonable connection to the perpetrator and Trump at all, and now you just attack people for exploring the evidence without pre-judgement.
                  My question to Trump is simple... he have eing way to vocal when muslims do terror attacks... why now he is so ambiguous about a fascist attack?

                  Feeling good and morally superior simpleman? Do you think you've set yourself up now as judge and jury over all the people in this forum?
                  I don't consider myself morally superior.

                  I don't know what people think other than the small posts they've shared, I read nothing else into it. This incident sits on top of a bigger incident that caused it, the mishandling of protest about the statue and how the dispersion of the protesters on all sides was handled. That is going to be a raw area for people the closer they are to these incidents, and to those who care about proper exercise of authority, enforcement and justice in the US. Simpleman, have you even noticed how cautious people on this forum are about discussing that? Blame the authorities, blame the police, blame the secret lizard conspiracy is rife all over the internet... but not here.
                  Have you read anything of what other people here have posted? because pretty much all of that is here, except for the lizards, however we have a second best... swamp Washington pedophile politicians...

                  Simpleman you might want to think about that, before you keep pushing your own judgemental, accusatory and one tracked agenda.
                  OK.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Iggy View Post
                    The driver of the hard the caused the deaths was a diagnosed Schizophrenic, prescribed with anti-psychotics, raised by a wheelchair bound single mother who had called the police on her son a number of times due to his threats of violence.
                    YOu don't really wnat to go that route...

                    I don't have much time now. SO all I am goign to say is this... he being crazy is not a justification for his acts.

                    But now that you going this route... So what about the leader of the neo-nazi group, recruiting and indoctrinating mentally challenged kids... he says he have 200 kids more like this... So... if each one of the 200 do terror attacks... can we then judge the whole group for that? or I am goign to be reminded, each time, that it is single individuals and not groups....


                    The driver had agency.. he was aware of his condition yet (I assume) he put himself into a highly volatile situation and then used his car as a weapon, regardless of if he thought it was in self defense or not.

                    Yet, even without the actions of this one man.. there still would be the violence of the mob, the desire to erase history, the actions of the police and the mayor, and the assault on free speech.
                    In your examples who is the victim of all this violence?

                    No mainstream media outlet ever held Obama accountable for the actions of so called 'lone wolf' murderers... they gave Obama plenty of coverage and ignored it when Obama cited bigotry and racism well before any facts where known.
                    Obama named the terror groups by name... so a big difference there...

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by simpleman View Post
                      I am definitely struggling with the fact that some people in this forums are taking a different position about this attack to the position they have take before, in relation to muslim attacks, for example.

                      Every time a a fanatic muslim does an attack, you can see the whole muslim community making those blank statements, that we all have agree before look fake and mostly clinical... for example: "don't judge all the muslims by the actions of this single man"...

                      Now I am finding the same kind of statements on this forums... and I have to wonder... some people here feel as part of a broader community that this extremist is a part of too?

                      I know what I think about the so call "moderated muslims"... but now I am wondering if there is also "moderated nazis"?

                      Those are my struggles.




                      Sure, but then again my question... does it allow you to have it when the terrorists is for instance a muslim? Or this dual argument only works with fascist terrorists?



                      I agree with this...



                      I have noted this before...

                      And before I have made a difference between hate and violent... for example when I say that the neo-nazis are a hate group, and I think antifa is not hate but they are violent.

                      However... In this particular case, I don't think there should be watered down with "all hate is equal"... I think the act of running people down with a car is not comparable to anything else that happened that day... It is not an escalation of violence... it is an acting out of ideals... this is how I understand it.

                      To deeper it more, this guy was a walking bomb, and eventually he was going to do something... it happens this time this way, but the context is mostly incidental, he was already angry and motivated. YOu can blame the victims for... angering him, or challenge him to act it out... but I don't think the victims are where the focus should be, but in the man driving the car...



                      Sure, but maybe I should not be here?

                      I must say, I have seeing in the forums some serious off color remarks about immigrants, blacks, muslims, and what not... I think I should challenge it.. or maybe I should just leave and find me an environment that is more compatible with my ideas???



                      I am not pushing anybody... it is how things are unfolding...

                      For instance I am shown a picture of someone hitting the side of the car with a stick... And accompanying the picture comes the description that claims that this was before he run people down with the car...

                      So I understand with this is that the point here is that... ???

                      If someone hit my car with a stick, is it OK for me, then, to run down 20 people with my car?

                      Equal violence?

                      Then I look at the video, and notice that he was already running people down with the car, by the moment of this hit with stick... So???

                      Did that stick hit really justify what the car driver did? specially considering that he already hit some people with the car by that moment?

                      At some level I have to consider that I am not the one with the agenda... And though I might consider that other forum member have make a wrong description of the picture, to make a blond point that is actually immoral... I have to consider that this forum member is acting out of good intentions and is not, deliberately lying and misleading... but maybe he himself is not clear?

                      I think I can write down a full essay in this picture of the person hitting the side of the car with a stick, and the giving description of say picture...



                      Perhaps it is just bad timing for people to be now be so sympathetic with hate groups.. have started to do that with, lest say, ISIS, and then bring it over to neo-nazis, I would have not be so much this conflicted about all this...

                      But we can try.

                      The guy that recently bomb a theater in England... both sides are violent, the muslims and the british, and we should not jump to conclusions and judge ISIS for what this one man did...

                      Sounds like your split brain would be OK having this conversation?


                      When a radicalized muslim goes out and commits a terrorist act they generally have put together one of those little video-shrine things where they give all their praises to allah, pledge their allegiance to whatever / whoever and cry death to the infidels and whatever else it is they do. Most terrorists do actually. There isn't much point in terrorizing people if they don't know why they're being terrorized. The whole point of "terrorism" is behavior modification. If you don't tell people who you are, what you're doing (what you did) and why-- all you get are random reactions and nobody knows what happened-- for all they know you were carrying home a pepperoni pizza and somehow it exploded. (facetious example of course, but I suspect you know what I'm getting at).

                      Of course there are people who get a wild-hair and do something reckless. There is always that possibility.

                      In practically every other kind of terrorism there were fore-tellings / fore-shadowings of what was going to happen. In the case of the Unabomber, for instance, he was writing letters to the editor and of course his infamous manifesto. Even ISIS, for all their bizarre evil and butchery generally proclaim what the point of the barbarism they're about to commit is.

                      Has this guy done that? (I don't know, I'm honestly asking)

                      Let us suppose, just for the sake of the argument, that you are a radical and for whatever reason you hate the XXX group. You despise them, you want them gone, it makes you freaky to even think about them. And so when you hear a group of them are in town you just have to get into your car and head over and see them-- maybe hoping one of them will start something so you can jump out and give 'em a piece of your mind-- or even pull out that bit of axe handle you keep under the seat for just such an occasion.

                      So you're out driving around, and you run into the police barricades (I'm assuming there were some, I'm not speaking from direct knowledge) or maybe a line of police keeping you from going further. So you change course and one thing leads to another thing and soon you find yourself heading down an alley-- not really realizing that you're heading into the thick of the crowd. And you're getting a little squicked out. On the one hand you just HATE these fucking XXX people. And on the other hand-- look at how many of them fuckers are THERE! Oh my fucking god. And the various thoughts are swirling around in your head and then all of a sudden-- *somebody* hits the back of your car. Maybe you see 'em do it, maybe you don't. But either way you react a bit and you gun it without thinking. Seems to me like a natural reaction. Anybody in that situation might do it without thinking or realizing it. And then suddenly you're in the middle of them and they all start wailing away and suddenly you're really scared. As much as you *WISH* you had the guts and resolve to jump out and "bash a few of them fuckers", inside you're really just a chicken-shit that likes to talk big when there ain't so many of them around. So when they start beating on your car you start looking around trying to figure a way out and before you know it you hit something. And then they *really* start bashing your car. Really, really afraid now, you stick it in reverse and start high-tailing it out of there as fast as you can, and everything is just sort of happening all around you-- and at the same time you know that whatever happened (whether you know what it was or not) you're going to be in deep shit with somebody.

                      YES. I can see how the situation could occur. It isn't the same as a typical terrorist act. But if he did it (and I still don't know if that's been admitted or discovered through evidence-- has it? I'm asking because I really don't know)-- if he did it, he is definitely responsible. But did he *INTEND* to do it? That's a different question, and ultimately the one that the legal system will have to determine.

                      Now, as far as the OTHER people who were there-- the XXX one's. *THEY* are the ones who started wailing on the car. And you can CLEARLY SEE IN THE VIDEO that *THEY* struck FIRST, even though his actions were ultimately more fatal. And after the crash, THEY CLEARLY WERE ATTACKING HIM-- there was no checking to see what the situation was-- whether it was somebody who had a heart attack and needed first aid. Or whether it was a guy taking his pregnant wife to the hospital who had turned down the wrong street by mistake. No concern at all about what the situation really was-- they *INSTANTLY AND IMMEDIATELY* started ATTACKING HIM without finding out WHAT his intent was.

                      I can tell you that *I* would have stuck it in reverse and hit the gas myself.

                      *AND* moreover, in other similar situations where people have been attacked while driving, THEY make similar choices.

                      Now, contrast this with the scene in Santa Monica where an old man plowed his car into a crowded farmer's market and killed nine people.

                      Wikipedia - Farmer's Market Crash
                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_...s_Market_crash

                      According to the Wikipedia report:

                      Some observers questioned Weller's account; numerous witnesses and victims reported:

                      -Seeing no brake lights on Weller's car, which would indicate that he was not attempting to stop;[citation needed]

                      -Weller stared straight ahead as he drove through the crowd, with victims flying over his windshield;[citation needed]


                      -Weller angrily yelled from his car "Get out of the way!" as he hit pedestrians;[1]

                      -That Weller avoided parked cars and produce tables on both sides of the road, steering instead directly down the middle of the crowded street;[citation needed]

                      -Weller did strike one vegetable stand, "sandwiching" victims with shelves and structural components from the stand;[1]


                      -Weller's car came to a stop after hitting two parked cars;[1]


                      You have a huge crowd of people who obviously believe that he must have done it maliciously (on purpose) and with intent. And yet not a single one of them picked up a zucchini and started beating his car with it. In fact, they gathered around the car to see if he was alright and tried to ascertain the situation before finally calling the police. He was subsequently found responsible in a court of law for the deaths of ten people.


                      The people who were in Charlottesville VA were *SPOILING* for a fight. They were there to kick some "nazi" ass and they didn't much care who that turned out to be. (In *OTHER* conflicts with ANTIFA, reports *AND VIDEO* show them beating people indiscriminately regardless of who they were or what their apparent affiliation was-- and remember *THIS ONE* is the only one that actually involved "neo nazis", "white supremacists" or the "alt right". The other events took place on university campuses where the conservative speaker had been INVITED BY THE UNIVERSITY TO ATTEND AND SPEAK.


                      I am not standing up for white supremacists, neo-nazis or any other dipshit douchebags. But ANTIFA is about hate and suppression through violence. They are on record stating it up front. They are being bankrolled and funded by large corporations and wealthy private citizens and aided by city officials and politicians. This *FACT* has been proven in at least the conflicts which occurred in Berkeley California where it has been revealed that the Mayor of the city ordered the police to stand down, do nothing, and let it happen.

                      It doesn't matter WHY they hate or WHY they are violent. Hate and Violence do not belong in our political debate.

                      If it turns out that the guy in the car *WAS* guilty-- then hang his ass in the public street. And I'd be honored to pull the lever myself.

                      As far as Muslims go. I haven't personally said anything that I can recall about them. And I do recognize that there are plenty of them who are not violent-- and frankly, who are genuinely nice people. But I also understand that some swath of them are at war with us and want to do us harm-- and *HAVE* done us harm, repeatedly. I personally don't know how to tell the good guys from the bad guys. That is a dilemma that *I PERSONALLY* do not know how to resolve. Or what to do about it. I don't know how to separate the ones who are good and harbor no ill will or bad intent from the ones that do. DO YOU? (I'm honestly asking, because I don't know)

                      If it was YYY people who were blowing us up and causing us problems-- I would say the same about them. For me it has nothing to do with the Muslim religion, or the Muslim people as a whole-- only the fact that the vast majority of the terrorist acts and various attacks that we have seen here in the US and around the world, and particularly in the middle eastern war zones (for probably obvious reasons) have been radicalized Muslims. To comment on that only makes a certain amount of sense. Even YOU have to agree to that. To wonder what to do to keep yourself and your family safe is also a logical thing to do. And it may seem like (and actually be) a shitty thing to do, but I think it is also a natural human reaction to try and separate yourself and the people you care about from the people who could potentially be there to cause you harm. No offense to the ones who really aren't, but you hope they sorta can understand your dilemma and cut you some slack.

                      Rounding them up and putting them into interment camps? It's been done before in this country. Again it was a pretty shitty thing to do. But *OTHER* leaders have actually gone out and ROUNDED PEOPLE UP and put them in CAMPS behind RAZOR WIRE FENCES. All Trump wanted to do was keep them from entering the country. It's *ALL* shitty. But how do you keep your people safe. What is YOUR suggestion? How would YOU do it? And how would YOU be able to GUARANTEE to keep YOUR people safe???

                      Tell us the answer-- because I know that there are a LOT of people who want to know the answer to that.


                      Oh, and just for grins, it was President Franklin Delano Roosevelt who ordered the Japanese Americans to be rounded up and put into camps. That's *D* for *DEMOCRAT* President Franklin D Roosevelt.

                      Interestingly, in 1917 it was President Woodrow Wilson who ordered German Americans be rounded up and put into internment camps. That's *D* for *DEMOCRAT* President Woodrow Wilson. And then they were rounded up again in World War II and put into internment camps by President Roosevelt.

                      The Democrats are really good at hypocrisy. They have it down to an ART FORM.

                      In fact, just about everything the liberals and Democrats complain about TRUMP saying, thinking or doing-- *THEY* have already done themselves on multiple occasions. Like trying to build a wall between the US and Mexico. Hillary Clinton, by the way, voted YES for it. When it comes to 'Grabbing them by the pussy', Bill Clinton has that down to a science and makes Trump look like a panty-waist. Jack Kennedy did it even better before him. (And for fairness, I'm sure lots of other Presidents and politicians have too from both parties-- even the *FEMALE* ones.).

                      Nor was Trump the first President to ban foreigners from entering the US because he feared that they might cause trouble, wreak havoc, or commit criminal or terrorists acts.... President Jimmy Carter (that's *D* for *DEMOCRAT* President Jimmy Carter) initiated a ban on Iranians entering the country in 1980. President Bill Clinton (that *D* for *DEMOCRAT*) President Bill Clinton signed an order preventing certain groups of people from Kosovo from entering the US. Interestingly, Trumps list of Muslim countries to ban came from the Obama administration-- that would be *D* for *DEMOCRAT* President Barack Obama.
                      Last edited by mr_e; 08-18-2017, 11:14 PM.
                      FEMINISM is a HATE GROUP - Feminists are HATEFUL PEOPLE
                      It's time to call it out for what it is.
                      == REJECT FEMINISM. EMBRACE HUMANITY ==


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                      • Originally posted by mr_e View Post
                        I agree. Hate is hate. Doesn't matter whether it's left or right. In the end why do you care if it's a commie or a nazi bashing you in the head with a stick?
                        Well it's a good thing I'm not American. All those decades of Cold War against Communists, only to have it rise from within. Disgusting. I'd be prepping for a Civil War if I were.

                        Originally posted by dubs View Post
                        Grab enough proles off the street, offer them $25/hr, suddenly you have a "crowd" of "social justice warriors" aka urban mercenaries.
                        And exactly where is this money coming from? Soros/Clinton/Obama/whomever should be tried and hung for sedition.
                        Last edited by oldblueeyes; 08-18-2017, 11:18 PM.
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                        • Originally posted by simpleman View Post
                          YOu don't really wnat to go that route...

                          I don't have much time now. SO all I am goign to say is this... he being crazy is not a justification for his acts.

                          But now that you going this route... So what about the leader of the neo-nazi group, recruiting and indoctrinating mentally challenged kids... he says he have 200 kids more like this... So... if each one of the 200 do terror attacks... can we then judge the whole group for that? or I am goign to be reminded, each time, that it is single individuals and not groups....


                          In your examples who is the victim of all this violence?

                          Obama named the terror groups by name... so a big difference there...

                          I agree. He being crazy is not really a good justification for his acts-- although it works whenever it's a woman. But we all know women get pussy passes for practically everything.
                          FEMINISM is a HATE GROUP - Feminists are HATEFUL PEOPLE
                          It's time to call it out for what it is.
                          == REJECT FEMINISM. EMBRACE HUMANITY ==


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                          • Originally posted by oldblueeyes View Post
                            Well it's a good thing I'm not American. All those decades of Cold War against Communists, only to have it rise from within. Disgusting. I'd be prepping for a Civil War if I were.
                            And exactly where is this money coming from? Soros/Clinton/Obama/whomever should be tried and hung for sedition.

                            I think people *ARE* quietly preparing for war. I know people who are accumulating supplies, gun, ammo, and everything else they can think of, "just in case". And they think there is going to be a larger general conflict. Whether it would be on the scale of an actual war or not, who knows. But there are definitely some bad times on the horizon as far as I can see.

                            From what I've heard Soros is doing a lot of the funding. Don't know that for a fact, but that's the general scuttlebutt. Don't know about the others.
                            FEMINISM is a HATE GROUP - Feminists are HATEFUL PEOPLE
                            It's time to call it out for what it is.
                            == REJECT FEMINISM. EMBRACE HUMANITY ==


                            The World of Men - Men's Rights / MGTOW / Sites of Interest to Men
                            http://forums.avoiceformen.com/showt...nterest-to-Men

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                            • Simpleton is here discussing this in the manner he needs to re-orient his brain so that the cognitive dissonance is gone.
                              For him it's simple, meh for him everything is simple.

                              in any case every word by other commenters gets re-written into the 'must be a nazi script' that is running an endless loop in his head.

                              One thing that Ive begun noticing is the these people from the Proper Representation Revolution all seem to talk like kindergarten teachers.
                              ie.

                              "I think that if you review the footage again thoughtfully, that it will become obvious how Trump was revving the car that ran over the ....etc"

                              over and over this type gibber runs and it doesnt stop. Matters not if the issue is Trump, AntiFa, the muslim extremism, right-of-centre thinking, the wrong statue of some dead fucker frozen on a dead horse, or the the the the Russians did it .... these people just run the script they were taught in kindergarten and declare themselves morally correct.
                              Then go of Tut-tutting to the other blog they bullshit on.

                              Yesterday on the radio I had to listen to this exact same bullshit and methodology by some infantile 20-something pressing that to be less racist, Australian media and corporate bodies simply must have better minority representation.
                              She wobbled back and forth between race, gender, sex and tried to make it sound like a moral imperative.
                              She had the grace at least to stop bullshitting while the radio show host was talking or taking listener calls.
                              The thing is that every time she got to talk again...she simply started at the beginning like she was lecturing kindergarten kids.

                              Until she gets what she wants, all she can see around her are sexist, racist bigots.

                              There is no point to talking or rationalizing with these people... their brains are stuck.

                              Simpleton, to be taken credibly and conversed with rationally, you will need to stop the internal script that is compelling you to take extremely complex and interrelated things and water them down into infantile polarisations.
                              Or put more simply just grow up.
                              Think for yourself.

                              right now you just look like a dick-head trying tear down a statue you don't like

                              ....

                              My Grandmother would have shrieked from the kitchen window, "Oy, stop that sword fighting and put my tomato-stakes back where they came form before somebody takes a bloody eye out."
                              Last edited by MatrixTransform; 08-18-2017, 11:58 PM.
                              "Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one" - Charles Mackay

                              And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee. - Donne

                              "What we are seeing in this headless misandry is a grand display of the Tyranny of the Underdog: 'I am a wretchedly longstanding victim; therefore I own no burden of adult accountability, nor need to honor any restraint against my words and actions. In fact, all efforts to restrain me are only further proof of my oppressed condition.'
                              "It is the most perfect trump-card against accountable living ever devised." - Gladden Schrock

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                              • Originally posted by mr_e View Post
                                I think people *ARE* quietly preparing for war. I know people who are accumulating supplies, gun, ammo, and everything else they can think of, "just in case". And they think there is going to be a larger general conflict. Whether it would be on the scale of an actual war or not, who knows. But there are definitely some bad times on the horizon as far as I can see.

                                From what I've heard Soros is doing a lot of the funding. Don't know that for a fact, but that's the general scuttlebutt. Don't know about the others.
                                I grew up in the 80s buying gun and survivalist magazines every week. Then I found out that guns laws in Canada were so restrictive that I couldn't have handguns in my house and go outside and shoot targets whenever I wanted (I live in the country). Then I found out that we didn't have true freedom of speech or peaceful assembly if it didn't conform with the hive mind. Antifart Commie Scum want to strip Americans of these rights, and as a Canadian, I say fight for them!

                                Originally posted by simpleman View Post
                                Is it OK to run evil people over with a car? Doing that, what will make you?
                                Well, I'm not American so my opinion is irrelevant. But I don't give a shit who gets run over by a car, KKK or Antifart Commie Scum. But if I were American and it came to Civil War, yes, I'd kill as many people as I could who were trying to destroy the fundamental pillars of the USA, and I wouldn't care what I was or what anybody thought. Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out.

                                And don't think that just because I'm Canadian that I think I'm immune. An American Civil War could stretch into Canada since we have no real way of defending ourselves.
                                Stay single and prosper!

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